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Bad call or cooler??

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Bad call or cooler?? - Thu Mar 15, 2012, 03:01 PM
(#1)
ceril12's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 45
SilverStar
Just busted Event 03 MM on this hand.




I wasn`t at the table long (maybe 20-30 hands).
i was 5000/21000 left in the tourney at the start of the hand.
Let me know what you think!!

Cheers ceril
 
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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 07:40 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi Ceril,

You're both really deep stacked at this juncture, personally I'm not really looking to play an all in preflop pot this deep with QQ unless I know the opponent is bad enough to be stacking off many worse hands them-self this deep. You're basically saying you have no reads, so in that case my default line is to flat preflop for (we are 62bb's deep to start the hand) and use my positional advantage to make better decisions against this guy while keeping the pot sized under control.

Your 3b sizing is quite large, if you are 3 betting you don't need to make it 9x over a , I think that only tends to fold out a lot of worse hands and value cuts your QQ too much. But even a more standard 3b sizing like 950 to go really puts us in a gross spot if he comes back over the top and makes it like 2500 on these stacks. I'm not a fan of being in gross spots, which is why I like flatting to begin with here.

If we're 20 or 30 bb's deep (or less), no problem playing for stacks vs. an unknown with QQ, let's ride. If we're up against a known spewer who has been trying to punt his stack, he's got my action here too. With no read and 62 bb's deep though, I prefer to take a more pot control line (especially in an event like this with a pretty nice structure).

Dave


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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 09:31 PM
(#3)
ceril12's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 45
SilverStar
Ye i only realized after the hand how bad i played it .
Onto the next one!!


Thanks for the analysis
 
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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 10:04 PM
(#4)
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Hey Dave,
What would you suggest to do, If the guy with KK had 3 bet before it got to Ceril ?
If Ceril 4 bet, All the money is going in the middle anyway.
Could you really 4 bet fold to a shove with QQ ?
Or would you flat call his 3 bet ? Isn,t that a spew of chips?

I could see myself playing this hand exactly as ceril did.

Chuckkky
 
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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 10:27 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckkky View Post
Hey Dave,
What would you suggest to do, If the guy with KK had 3 bet before it got to Ceril ?
If Ceril 4 bet, All the money is going in the middle anyway.
Could you really 4 bet fold to a shove with QQ ?
Or would you flat call his 3 bet ? Isn,t that a spew of chips?

I could see myself playing this hand exactly as ceril did.

Chuckkky
But he didn't 3B.

If the villain is a spewtard, I'll 4b/get it in.

If they are not a big spewer but are predictable post flop I'll flat a normal 3b size on this depth of money and play the pot in position.

If they are a tight conservative player, I'm fine folding immediately. Vs. an UTG raise and UTG+1 3b from a tight conservative player, it's ok really to fold QQ on a 62 bb stack. Flatting him is tough because his EP 3b range is so tight already, and 4-betting is suicide.

Vs. an unknown I will tend to err on the side of caution on this depth of money, and either flat or just fold to a 3b. Given it's a $5 tournament and a normal 3b size would be less than 10% of my stack, I'm probably going to see the flop in position with QQ. If we had reads the guy was bad, then I'm much more happy just 4b/getting it in since a bad player will be doing that here with TT and AQ etc.


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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 10:37 PM
(#6)
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Thanks Dave,
It is a tricky spot to be
When you are patient for so long, Its hard to fold QQ
 
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Thu Mar 15, 2012, 11:55 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckkky View Post
Thanks Dave,
It is a tricky spot to be
When you are patient for so long, Its hard to fold QQ
Yeah, I agree it's really gross.

But, it's important to detach ourselves a bit from our cards, because NLHE is really about finding good spots. Sometimes our cards play into that... if we have AA preflop it's always a good spot to get involved. But moving beyond just our cards there's a lot of other factors that play into making spots bad or good too...

If we have QQ here against a maniac, it's a good spot.
If we have QQ against a tight UTG raise and a tight UTG+1 3b, it's not really a good spot despite the intrinsic hand strength of QQ.
If we have T7 on the button vs. a chronic limp/folder and with 2 nits in the blinds, it's a good spot.

Stack sizes, player types, image, the action sequence, etc etc all can play into making a spot good or bad, and sometimes these other considerations trump our hand value. Maybe even a little more than sometimes. Looking at it in this light will once in a while lead us to making a laydown that feels uncomfortable or unnatural, but it may be a better line none the less.


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