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2NL Zoom Poker - Passive Villain Suddenly Makes Big River Raise & I Hold an Overpair

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2NL Zoom Poker - Passive Villain Suddenly Makes Big River Raise & I Hold an Overpair - Fri Mar 16, 2012, 04:52 PM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
For some reason this hand wouldn't load up into the replayer ... anyways, I saw Ed just post a hand where he was holding KK in the bb, but here I'm in the button with KK. And so I was wondering ...

Is it too nitty to fold here with an overpair?

Conversely, is it too calling station to call a big river bomb, given that it usually mean 'monster' (but see sjekkkk: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/com...eading-ability)

And if I was going to call ... should I just get it all in while I'm at it?


PokerStars Hand #77300034280: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2012/03/16 17:34:18 ET
Table 'bltable.1225795485.1225807096' 6-max
Seat 1: TrustySam ($2.26 in chips)
Seat 2: zidane878 ($2.29 in chips)
Seat 3: PEsport ($9.07 in chips)
Seat 4: redtema ($2.32 in chips)
Seat 5: killo_grao86 ($7.80 in chips)
Seat 6: Deets947 ($2.03 in chips)
zidane878: posts small blind $0.01
PEsport: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TrustySam [Ks Kd]
redtema: folds
killo_grao86: folds
Deets947: folds
TrustySam: raises $0.03 to $0.05
zidane878: folds
PEsport: calls $0.03
(pot is $0.11)
*** FLOP *** [3c 2s Jh]
PEsport: checks
TrustySam: bets $0.11
PEsport: calls $0.11
(pot is $0.32)
*** TURN *** [3c 2s Jh] [Tc]
PEsport: checks
TrustySam: bets $0.32
PEsport: calls $0.32
(pot is $0.96)
*** RIVER *** [3c 2s Jh Tc] [8d]
PEsport: bets $1.30
TrustySam: ???


PS I wanted to get called which is why I tried to make my raise look like a blinds steal attempt by making it only $0.05. Figured I'd only need to worry about AA ... then the villain kept calling ... :/ )

Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Mar 16, 2012 at 04:54 PM..
 
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Fri Mar 16, 2012, 09:12 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Hi Sam,

Personally I would call here, because the villains line makes no sense. Check/call, check/call, overbet donk the river... what's he repping? He's saying the 8 helped him, but I don't see how... either he was c/c with pocket 8's or with T8... otherwise I think we're good. In my experience you'll see people make bluffs like this a lot in zoom, and also weird bets with something like A8 (which again makes no sense really to c/c 2 streets with ace high then bomb the river when you pair up). Anyway his line just reps so little that I think I would look him up, and make a note for sure on the villain on what he plays this way. Although it's zoom you will be seated with this player again so the note/reads are valuable to have.

Dave


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Fri Mar 16, 2012, 09:28 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
To play devils advocate,I find it profitable to spew with trips on these boards on the river.
Players call more often than not I think half out of curiosity and the other half thinking it has to be a pure bluff making ace high good or over pair as well.
Its a line I just added to my play against weaker players.

As for the hand I tend to play the nuts and bluffs the same by checking the turn against certain players as it gives me a look into what they have and allows me to get away from a bad bluff or commit realizing my hand is good based on how they play due to my check.

The hand of the villain could be anything though since your open pf looks like a steal like you planned. I play it different with zoom and open 4xbb to appear more aggressive and set a wild image if I have KK or AA.
 
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Sat Mar 17, 2012, 09:20 AM
(#4)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi Sam,

Personally I would call here, because the villains line makes no sense. Check/call, check/call, overbet donk the river... what's he repping? He's saying the 8 helped him, but I don't see how... either he was c/c with pocket 8's or with T8... otherwise I think we're good. In my experience you'll see people make bluffs like this a lot in zoom, and also weird bets with something like A8 (which again makes no sense really to c/c 2 streets with ace high then bomb the river when you pair up). Anyway his line just reps so little that I think I would look him up, and make a note for sure on the villain on what he plays this way. Although it's zoom you will be seated with this player again so the note/reads are valuable to have.

Dave
Okay, thanks so much Dave

I haven't been playing cash games for too long, so it's a small sample size I'm dealing with, but there's that 'report card' that PTR gives out that was saying I go to showdown too much and that I should try folding more.

And while playing, it does kind of seem like I wind up calling an awful lot, and wind up losing far more often than not.

So I'm kind of on the search for the hands that I should be folding. Okay so I can cross this one off the list, and will keep searching

The bb had JTo (2pr), but I've seen people at 2NL play hands like JK, JA that way too. I guess the line they took was less than ideal for any of those hands, eh? Probably they too could benefit from some help at PSO, but I haven't seen them around here ...

Thanks again Dave - it's nice to have this HA section to be able to get objective feedback ... helps a lot
 
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Sat Mar 17, 2012, 09:43 AM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
To play devils advocate,I find it profitable to spew with trips on these boards on the river.
Players call more often than not I think half out of curiosity and the other half thinking it has to be a pure bluff making ace high good or over pair as well.
Its a line I just added to my play against weaker players.


As for the hand I tend to play the nuts and bluffs the same by checking the turn against certain players as it gives me a look into what they have and allows me to get away from a bad bluff or commit realizing my hand is good based on how they play due to my check.

The hand of the villain could be anything though since your open pf looks like a steal like you planned. I play it different with zoom and open 4xbb to appear more aggressive and set a wild image if I have KK or AA.
When the zoom first started and they only had 2NL, it was great because there were all those supernovas trying it out ... and there's so few times I get the chance to play with good players like that.

And one thing I noticed is that they don't make those same curiosity calls like I do ... I mean like other people do ()

After a year of playing, and hanging out at PSO and watching videos in the library and reading other peoples thoughts and all that, it's funny sometimes at the table to see people make mistakes that I used to make. And knowing why they're playing the way they're playing, because I used to play that same way ... I guess that's always a big plus if the villain's easy to read, eh?

I guess if I can tone down the curiosity calls (not this hand, but with other hands, if I can find the culprits), then hopefully I'll be able to spot those same tendencies in others, and I can try copying some of your moves cookies. Some mad skills you got there ... if I ever wind up at the same table as you, I better fast-fold and move on and you'll know why

The 4bb raise I can try now - that's a great tip ... thanks so much to you too for the help!!
 
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Sat Mar 17, 2012, 11:52 AM
(#6)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
The villains line is very polarized. Missed draw or slowplayed set/rivered 2 pair.

Personally, I think villain was taking a classic donk line with his flopped set. They slowplay as much as possible, then on the river overbet huge to try and make up for all the lost value on earlier streets. Weak players do it all the time at 2NL.

Notice he is out of position. On the river he is scared your not going to barrel another bet so he decides to suddenly bet out. He doesn't want to look like a fool when you both check down river and he shows up with a flopped set vs your overpair.


On very wet boards, if the river is a blank, villain taking a similar line of action could well mean he is bluffing his missed draw. In this example the board is very dry though and there is not much for him to draw to. Possible he is holding A4c-A5c/45c in this example though.

I would probably expect a check/raise on river with the bluff, but due to your stack size that is not a possibility. Therefore if he wants to bluff his missed draw he has to shove into you.


So question is, what do you decide is happening here, and should you call? You have to win ~57% of the time to break even. Due to how few draws there are, I would weight his range more towards a set/rivered 2 pair. Maybe 80% strong hand / 20% weak(air) hand. Fold.
 
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Sat Mar 17, 2012, 03:26 PM
(#7)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
^^^
Hey, thx for the feedback too rocker!!

You make a lot of great points too.

I wound up calling, but felt like a bit of calling station for doing it.

On the other hand, if I had folded, I'd have wound up feeling like a bit of a nit.

So, maybe this is one of those hands where ... like maybe a case could be made for either a call or a fold - especially since so much of my stack was already in the middle, etc. But I do have some hands where I've called, and it'll be a lot harder for me to think up a story for why I could have possibly thought my mediocre hand justified calling an equally large (or larger) raise

Will have to keep my eye out for next time I stay too long in a pot, and wind up spewing chips, and post that as well
 
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Sat Mar 17, 2012, 04:31 PM
(#8)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Well I mean, at 2NL ANYTHING is possible... sometimes people will simply make plays that are completely illogical and make no sense. Anyways, that is my thought process regarding the hand. Maybe I'm a little nitty when the pot gets big, but at 2NL it is way better to be a little nitty post-flop than too loose.
 
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Sat Mar 17, 2012, 04:32 PM
(#9)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,506
Apparently there is an excellent feature on this Zoom Poker, that wasn't available with Rush, and that is:- if you hold the ctrl key when you use the fold button, you can see the end of the hand.

 
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Sat Mar 17, 2012, 04:59 PM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockerguyAA View Post
Well I mean, at 2NL ANYTHING is possible... sometimes people will simply make plays that are completely illogical and make no sense. Anyways, that is my thought process regarding the hand. Maybe I'm a little nitty when the pot gets big, but at 2NL it is way better to be a little nitty post-flop than too loose.
Tight is right

I've been trying to tighten up, so it's kind of a work in progress, but maybe I'll give this a try for a bit, seeing as I tend more the other way ... I feel like maybe that'll be a positive step in the right direction
 
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Sat Mar 17, 2012, 05:01 PM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curran View Post
Apparently there is an excellent feature on this Zoom Poker, that wasn't available with Rush, and that is:- if you hold the ctrl key when you use the fold button, you can see the end of the hand.

I haven't tried that yet, because I've been too busy calling raises with the worst hand (lol! ). But it sounds really neat!
 

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