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10NL think i played this wrong..

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10NL think i played this wrong.. - Sun Mar 18, 2012, 07:41 AM
(#1)
Austerror's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 85


Didn't really have any reads on the opponent, he hadn't been in many hands, id put him on a premium hand range, AA, KK, QQ etc.. gah.. thought i was getting max value for it..
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 12:57 PM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Hi Austerror.

YIKES! Bad luck!

Truth be known though, kind of a bad play by you too...

Pre flop, raising 88 over limps can be fine, and the depth of money to call the 3bet for a set mine was there too...so nothing wrong there really.

On the flop you have a pretty weak draw board, and the 3bettor leads into your set. If you read the villain for a premium holding, or even if you read him as aggro enough to barrel again over a call by you, a slow play is fine here really...

The turn sees the 2nd barrel by the villain, and also sees the pot grow to the point where you can reasonably get your chips in as a bit less than a pot sized raise. Why not just do that?

If the villain has a strong 1 pair hand he may feel he "has" to call, and you get your max value. He may even feel the type of pretty WEAK hand he had on the turn (diamond draw with 2 overs) is enough to call off. You probably should have given him that chance...

You see Austerror, slow plays are good ideas only when:

A) there are not a lot of "threats" against you.
B) when the pot is SMALL.
C) when a bet will only serve to fold out WORSE hands, and get called by better ones.

While the diamonds do not represent a huge threat to you with just 1 card to come, they do represent some threat.

On the turn, the pot was certainly no longer "small".

BECAUSE the pot was no longer small, and BECAUSE you felt there was a decent chance this opp held a premium pocket pair, there was a pretty good chance you COULD have gotten called by a lesser hand for all your chips had you moved all in on the turn.

...and I think that is what you probably should have done here.

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Sun Mar 18, 2012 at 01:01 PM..
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 03:47 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi Aus,

Personally I don't think the call of his 3b is that good, we're not quite deep enough. Implied odds are just barely there but we will get stacks in much less often than you might expect in 6m simply because people are 3b much lighter than normal so they will less often have that big hand that will play for stacks. If you caught xflixx's live training this past week he did a great class on just this topic "Help, I got 3B!"... really a great presentation on the default play with various hand strengths and when/why we can deviate from that. Being 130 bb's deep and in position it's close, could go either way really, but probably better to 4b or fold and readless the default I think should be fold.

I agree with JD on getting it in on the turn. Simply because at this point his range IS in fact weighted towards big pairs when he double barrels, and I no longer expect him to fold those, so I'd like to get them in the middle now before a possible scary river card freezes him... like if he's got QQ the ace of diamonds for example might make it harder to get stacks in on the river.

Hopefully you made a note at least, after seeing this it can impact how we respond to this player's 3b's in the future.

Dave


Head Live Trainer
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 07:12 PM
(#4)
Austerror's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 85
yea having looked at it again today i saw some of that myself, about 20 minutes later we were involved in a very similar hand, where he 3 bet my pocket 10s and i 4 bet back, he called then flopped top pair and followed a similar betting line but i folded after the turn..

Thanks for the help, definitely something I'm trying to work on..
 
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Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:42 AM
(#5)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
as pl

Last edited by rule110; Thu Apr 26, 2012 at 10:52 PM..
 
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Tue Mar 20, 2012, 12:00 AM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi Aus,

Personally I don't think the call of his 3b is that good, we're not quite deep enough. Implied odds are just barely there but we will get stacks in much less often than you might expect in 6m simply because people are 3b much lighter than normal so they will less often have that big hand that will play for stacks.
Dave
i really cannot dis-agree with this when you lack reads.

You only have the POTENTIAL to see about 11 to 1 pay off to set mine if you call the 3bet, so needing a 8.5 to 1 pay off to break even on the chance, you have to be pretty SURE he will get em in for you.

I have stated elsewhere that to really set mine well vs a raise, you want more along the line of 12 to 15 to 1 pay off potential at least to be pretty sure of getting what you need from your risk. you need MORE potential pay off than 8.5 to 1 because you must factor in that your set may not be good, your chance of getting him completely in may not be great, and there might be times when he cannot fold draws which will hit and cost YOU the max when it is very difficult to fold your set.

So strictly speaking 11 to 1 is not quite a great spot to call the 3bet...but it is understandably close to ok.


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Set Mining Weaker Opponents - Fri Mar 23, 2012, 06:37 AM
(#7)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
i really cannot dis-agree with this when you lack reads.

You only have the POTENTIAL to see about 11 to 1 pay off to set mine if you call the 3bet, so needing a 8.5 to 1 pay off to break even on the chance, you have to be pretty SURE he will get em in for you.

I have stated elsewhere that to really set mine well vs a raise, you want more along the line of 12 to 15 to 1 pay off potential at least to be pretty sure of getting what you need from your risk. you need MORE potential pay off than 8.5 to 1 because you must factor in that your set may not be good, your chance of getting him completely in may not be great, and there might be times when he cannot fold draws which will hit and cost YOU the max when it is very difficult to fold your set.

So strictly speaking 11 to 1 is not quite a great spot to call the 3bet...but it is understandably close to ok.
The PF question here is do you set mine IP getting less than 15:1 implied odds. I believe it was Eric 'Rizen' Lynch that stated he would set mine with as low as 10:1 implied odds against weaker opponents, because there's a greater chance you can stack them. This is a reference from 'Winning Poker Tournaments One hand At A Time (Vol 1)'. I like the call (even without reads), for the following reasons: We may have the best hand, and even though it may be hard to play post-flop, being IP at a 10NL table, I want to play this hand. We also want to build an image (we won't always lay down to a 3bet). As played, I like the slow play on the FLOP. On the TURN, we must raise it AI possibly to protect our hand against diamonds, plus there are too many scare cards that we may not get any further value on the river. If the villain has an over pair, he may see our TURN AI raise as a semi-bluff, or possibly a weaker pair (he has no reads on us as well), and call us down.
.
 
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Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:39 PM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Yeah...you can set mine with 8.5 to 1 odds if you think you will ALWAYS get their full stack.

The point Dave made, and the point I do agree with, is that in this spot where we do not have info, you really want more like 12 to 15 to 1 odds, not 11 to 1. This is a boarderline spot, and it can go either way really.

I DO like your thought regarding using it to "balance" your actions, so you are not an insta target for 3betting. This is certainly a solid reason for tipping you in the DIRECTION of calling in a near spot!


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Last edited by JDean; Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 12:41 PM..
 
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Calling the 3bet - Fri Mar 23, 2012, 02:13 PM
(#9)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
I just reevaluated the hand for implied odds - if we stack the villain we will be getting 15 times our additional $2.05 call, plus the pot already has 2.5 times our call. This in addition to my previous reasons (see past post), tips me in favor of calling. The nature of 6 max leans towards aggressive play and image, thus again tipping me towards calling. I plan on calling most flop c-bets, and reevaluating on the turn. If things go right, I will try to take this down on the TURN (even without hitting a set).

IP I tend to call this 3-bet, unless I have other villain dependent reasons to vary my line; OOP I think a 4-bet or fold is mandatory.
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