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hand question please

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hand question please - Sun Mar 18, 2012, 12:29 PM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
utg with ak second hand into a sng 45 ppl

i raise 140 blinds are 20

utg+3 raises 280

button shoves his 960 remainder looking loose from the first hand

I reraise all in to 1500 my stack

utg+3 calls

I all ready this early had a guess at utg+3 had qq or kk ruling out aces as i had one

put the button on fresh air

was correct utg+3 shows kk

button shows 96

i lost to kk

my question should i shove in this spot if i want to win the tourney or should i of been passive
and folded knowing the opp probably had KK?

2nd example i called shove first hand in same type touney with 66 against aj should i be doing this to want to win the tourneys or should i fold?
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 12:47 PM
(#2)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Is this a turbo structured event? If it is I am likely playing as you did. If it's a slower structure then I wait for a better situation.

GOOD DECISIONS!
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 12:52 PM
(#3)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Did you have previous info on the UTG+3 to know it could be KK.

You are ruling out AA because you have one but you have a K too. If i have previous information I might not call two players but would call one how seems spewy. At best we are racing one guy and Crushing the other. But if we can triple up for a deep run 1 time in 3 is it a worthwhile spot.

Will follow the thread and see what everyone says, Its worth putting the numbers into pokerstove and see what %'s are.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 12:53 PM
(#4)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
***Moved***

Hey holdemace,

I think your preflop raise is a bit big. When you have that much of your stack already in the pot, it makes folding AK harder to do, and it really discourages the loose players at your table from calling with hands that you dominate. I'd suggest picking a standard raise amount and using it for your weaker hands and your strongest hands (although you should only be raising strong hands from your position). Typically, I will not be looking to get all-in preflop in a 3-way pot with AK on the first hand of a 45-man, but all things considered, it was probably okay here.

I hope that helps.

By the way, have you tried exporting your hands and converting them? It makes them a bit easier to analyze. If you click this:

PokerStars Lobby > Options > Instant Hand History Options

you can get the hands you play saved to your computer, then you can have them converted here or here. The converted hand usually provides some added info that makes the hand easier to evaluate.

Just one more tip- Please don't include results in your hand postings, because it tends to bias the conversation.

Have a great day!
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:09 PM
(#5)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
thanks panicky and yes i do realise can get hand history but for a while now the tool to generate as been broke for me and can not get it work.

and thanks for the comments so far appreciated.
had no solid reads on the opps as both early exits for me.but i see it as if my hands had won that surely allows me to run deep, rather than sitting to be blinded out,
i know it was early on and maybe a fold to stay alive but how do i win if i dont risk these spots occasionally? maybe better spots but then again the beter spot may never come.
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:35 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi holdem!

In the AK hand, I'm making a std raise to 60 (3BB). Larger raises early in tourneys is normally a big tell on a hand and I try to avoid that. Standard raises will keep the opp guessing as to what cards I have. When the opp shoves this early in a tourney, with AK, I'm mucking it. AK is still only ace high and opps early in a tourney will be calling/shoving with anything, so I don't want to put my tourney life on the line without a made hand.
Also, it doesn't matter what pair the opp has, if they even have one, AK is behind even 22 here.

Don't be results oriented, as the key to winning poker is to make the best decisions possible at that given point in time based on that individual situation.

66 in the first hand of a tourney is not a hand to shove with and especially I'm never calling a shove with it preflop. It takes a much better hand to call a shove than to shove with and 66 is way too marginal of a hand to be calling a preflop shove with early in a tourney.

The keys to these tourneys is patience and reads on the opps. Shoving too often, too early without seeing all 7 cards to know that my hand is going to be the best hand is not what I want to do in this type of tourney.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:48 PM
(#7)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
ty jw for your analysis and taking the time to do it. And ty all for the time. all comments and views appreciated
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 03:47 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
utg with ak second hand into a sng 45 ppl

i raise 140 blinds are 20

utg+3 raises 280

button shoves his 960 remainder looking loose from the first hand

I reraise all in to 1500 my stack

utg+3 calls

I all ready this early had a guess at utg+3 had qq or kk ruling out aces as i had one

put the button on fresh air

was correct utg+3 shows kk

button shows 96

i lost to kk

my question should i shove in this spot if i want to win the tourney or should i of been passive
and folded knowing the opp probably had KK?

2nd example i called shove first hand in same type touney with 66 against aj should i be doing this to want to win the tourneys or should i fold?
First thing is 7x is too big an opening raise. Is this your standard? If so lower it to 3x or maybe 4x if raising from the first 3 spots on the table (you SHOULD be playing a narrower,i.e. better,range of hands there and have more opps to follow so the extra bb is a decent ploy). If you raise different amounts due to the strength or weakness of your holdings that's an easily exploitable leak. I know it may not look like it at times in those .25 45 man's but some players ARE paying attention.

After the re-raise and then the ship there's no way I'm ever playing AK this early for stacks in a 45 man unless I have concise notes on both players being spewtards. And I HAVE been in exactly that spot a few times,lol. Your opening for 7x made it harder for you to find the fold button.

Remember ONLY the blinds can make you put money in the pot early in a SNG and at this stage they aren't worth fighting over. Yes,you can easily win 45 mans by making this fold in answer to your query. Also remember that because of their structure cashing at any level is more important in SNG's than it is in MTT's. So playing recklessly loose to try and take them down is not a good strategy and even more to the point the math doesn't even work for you here.

You have 67,500 chips in play and 7 players cash. So your baseline target to make it ITM is 9642 chips. Even if this was for 2 FULL stacks (which it wasn't) winning this hand only gets you a little less than halfway there. See why it's not worth it to gamble early in these now? Let bad players donk themselves out and when it gets to blind levels that are worth fighting for THEN you open up your range and gamble some.

66 hand is an auto-fold as well. First 2-3 blind levels in a 45 man I would always just fold 66 and less from the first 3 seats anyway (unless it was a very passive table that I could limp and get a cheap set mine chance on).
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 04:16 PM
(#9)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Fold fold fold from me.

AKo looks a nice hand pre but you really need to be seeing a flop and taking it from there when the blinds are low. With a reraise and shove already I'd let those 2 contest the hand and wait for a better spot. Your up against at the very worst AJs and even 22 is ahead of you. You're calling behind against one of the 2 imo and if someone else has AKo your hand is virtually dead before it's began. Even in a turbo I'm folding here, only a hyper turbo would suggest a call.

AKo is a premium but not a go broke hand in the early stages of a STT. By all means raise 2 or 3x and call a raise or reraise but don't go coin flipping so early in a tournament.

66 hand is the same as your AKo hand, don't go broke early with it. Personally I like to set mine, ie. get in cheap in the hope that I flop trips. On the rare occasions that you do hit your set you will be more than compensated for the times that you lost by getting in cheaply.

Later in a tournament a pair (and AKo) has so much more value but your value is in shoving and getting your chips in first.

HTH

Ovalman.
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 04:17 PM
(#10)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
By raising I mean 20 up to 60 chips and not to 40 chips. 3x is 20 up to 80 chips.
 

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