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what to do with AA and lots of limpers

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what to do with AA and lots of limpers - Sun Mar 18, 2012, 05:25 PM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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honestly .....


Grade b


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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 05:31 PM
(#2)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I'm shoving pre and not raising.

But I'm also shoving that flop. Trips has to be a worry but I think you got yourself into the problem by not shoving pre.

BTW AKs and JJ, maybe as low as 99 might be a shove in a similar spot.
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 05:34 PM
(#3)
Feskprins's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 450
I personally don't like this raise. You need to raise larger with this many limpers which with your stack means a shove. Hope someone calls (and more often than not, you will get one caller in these spots) but getting folds is just as good. Will be interesting to see what the others think but I would definitely shove here.

EDIT: Baw, Ovalman beat me to it.

....
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 05:35 PM
(#4)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
To add, you've only 15BB's in that stack, surprised that your opponents didn't pick up on the tell but I'm also limping 55 and calling that raise if I'm in late position and/ or have a stack to call with.
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 05:40 PM
(#5)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
To add even more

Try to think of the hand from your opponents point of view, I don't know the outcome but look at it from the guy in BB's point of view. There's 1 all in and common practice is checking a hand down to the river to KO a player. Say you have A5s or 44 on the button? How would you play it from his perspective?

Last edited by Ovalman; Sun Mar 18, 2012 at 05:41 PM.. Reason: grammar
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 05:43 PM
(#6)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
I think at this table, given our position and the relative stack sizes and the high number of limpers I would favour a shove (15BBish) preflop too. I'm expecting at least one call - maybe more.

I'd rather get straight in and then in the unlikley case they all fold its still a nice pot with no risk.

As the actual preflop action was a raise of about 25% of our stack I would continue and shove on any flop - however draw heavy the board was.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 06:09 PM
(#7)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
To add even more

Try to think of the hand from your opponents point of view, I don't know the outcome but look at it from the guy in BB's point of view. There's 1 all in and common practice is checking a hand down to the river to KO a player. Say you have A5s or 44 on the button? How would you play it from his perspective?
This is only "common" near the bubble, which is a couple or 3 hours away still.

Grade b


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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 06:21 PM
(#8)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
This is only "common" near the bubble, which is a couple or 3 hours away still.

Grade b
Not sure I understand your point but regardless, you're out of position and having to act first after the flop. Might be different on the button but I'm also shoving that button with many limpers. You don't need to be creative, you need the chips.

If you raise AA and KK in a similar position and shove the hands I mentioned above then it's an online tell that I will take a note of and use against you. Much better to shove every time with 15BB's and then I don't know if you've AK o AA or 72o for that matter.
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 07:00 PM
(#9)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
the point was that not many people check it down to knock out a single player.

I do agree that i should have shoved but at the time i wanted action with my AA.

Grade b


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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 07:12 PM
(#10)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Hi Grade b!

With AA in the SB and 3 limpers in front of me, I definitely want to raise. A pot sized raise is almost 1/2 my stack, so I'm shoving preflop here. I wouldn't mind some action, but I want to thin the field, as AA plays better against less opponents. Plus, if everyone folds and I pick up the pot right here, I gain 33% to my stack without a fight.

With 5 people in the pot and a flop with 3 unders that could contain a few straight draws or even a made straight, I'd definitely shove the flop.

With this hand in this situation, I'm shoving preflop.

One thing to mention about checking a pot down.... watch it bigtime there. That CAN be considered collusion.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 07:13 PM
(#11)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
the point was that not many people check it down to knock out a single player.

I do agree that i should have shoved but at the time i wanted action with my AA.

Grade b
You really want to be heads up with AA and not in a 3 or 4 way pot. You might still be favourite to win but your odds of winning are cut dramastically with more players ie. in a 3 way pot you will be more like a 50% chance of winning than an 80%. Shove to isolate and charge a premium for your monster.

As for checking down, it happens in every game. Players are scared to steal an empty pot and it doesn't make sense stealing with a bluff with no equity. Yes I'll bluff an all in'er if the side pot is worth more than the main one but I'll check to the river if I don't hit.
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 07:20 PM
(#12)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi Grade b!

With AA in the SB and 3 limpers in front of me, I definitely want to raise. A pot sized raise is almost 1/2 my stack, so I'm shoving preflop here. I wouldn't mind some action, but I want to thin the field, as AA plays better against less opponents. Plus, if everyone folds and I pick up the pot right here, I gain 33% to my stack without a fight.

With 5 people in the pot and a flop with 3 unders that could contain a few straight draws or even a made straight, I'd definitely shove the flop.

With this hand in this situation, I'm shoving preflop.

One thing to mention about checking a pot down.... watch it bigtime there. That CAN be considered collusion.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)
It is an unwritten rule to check a pot down. It's never collusion and makes perfect sense, bet when you hit, call when you draw and fold when you're behind. I'll gladly check a pot down to remove a player without saying anything in the chat box. If it improves my chance of winning I'll do it every time. Removing a player adds more to your chance of winning a prize.

If you feel this topic requires further discussion then I'd suggest starting a new thread than keeping it on here.
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 08:05 PM
(#13)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
b this needs to be a ship pre-flop. 100% of the time. Even if they all fold you still got decent value with your Aces and if you narrow it down to an isolated caller then so much the better. 4x'ing it here,with their stack sizes especially,you're giving them decent odds to call. You have to tax their azzes harder than this and with your effective stack size that means a ship.
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 09:27 PM
(#14)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
I couldn't respond sooner as I was too busy cleaning out my bucket. +100 on the shoving pre.

 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:00 PM
(#15)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
It is an unwritten rule to check a pot down. It's never collusion and makes perfect sense, bet when you hit, call when you draw and fold when you're behind. I'll gladly check a pot down to remove a player without saying anything in the chat box. If it improves my chance of winning I'll do it every time. Removing a player adds more to your chance of winning a prize.

If you feel this topic requires further discussion then I'd suggest starting a new thread than keeping it on here.
I agree with JWK this is collusion and NOT an unrwritten rule.

Unless your unwritting goes something like this,

"if you don't make a play for the pot I promise i will not then together we can knock out this chump and get both of us closer to the money."

Grade b

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Last edited by Grade b; Sun Mar 18, 2012 at 11:02 PM.. Reason: added PS
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:17 PM
(#16)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Lots of cool discussion.

Here's my take. If you know that they're round-calling you when you raise, do not shove, ever. Unless they're round-calling the shove, too. You want to get called by as many people as you can for the most amount of money. Whatever they'll fold to, bet 1 chip less. Why? Because it's aces! You won't get any more value from them than you will preflop, unless you manage to flop a boat or something nice like that. On the flop, you're probably behind, but preflop, you never are.

Shoving is fine, but imo if you know they're this bad, raising smaller and shoving any flop is better. Higher variance, yes, but way higher long-term return I would think.
 
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Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:57 PM
(#17)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Checking an all-in pot down is neither an unwritten rule NOR collusion unless there is some chat where people discuss doing so. It is totally allowed, and if you want to blindly follow Harrington, go for it, but it's not necessarily the right move even in a dry pot situation. For example, you might be able to get value from the other guy with chips, OR you might feel you have a better hand than the all-in guy or a lot of equity, but want to bluff the one with chips out of the pot. For instance maybe you have a big draw.

Anyhow, in this spot I actually really like your move B! I might have made the raise a little bigger, more like 3000, but I think getting your AA against more people has a greater chip expectation. You can always shove, as that does add a nice 25%, but getting a ton of extra money in the pot gives you a chance at an even larger stack. Also! If you go all in, they have no fold equity against you.

By making a nice raise you'll easily be able to shove any flop.

This flop is actually an excellent one! All low cards, you have AA, you can get it in against all kinds of smaller over pairs, only 22, 33, 55, 46, A4 have you in really bad shape, but even against the sets you have 6 outs (about 24% equity). If you run into 64 or A4 ouch, but they should be pretty unlikely. Far more likely to get called by like 66-JJ.


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