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new bankroll help

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new bankroll help - Sat Mar 24, 2012, 07:40 PM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
$225 a big lol what am i going to do with this?
 
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Sat Mar 24, 2012, 07:50 PM
(#2)
Feskprins's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 450
I think STTs is best. Just study some STT theory and you could grow that bankroll in no time.

....
 
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Sat Mar 24, 2012, 07:55 PM
(#3)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
give us a hint holdem.

Do you want advice to have fun or grow your bank roll
or is this really a brag. (in which case nice one sir)

if you are ok ay STT's you are rolled to play some $7 dollar games but watch the BR if you run bad at start. I know you can play the 45 mans so the 3.50 games could be good.

or if you fancy MTT fun then the big 2.20 may be your thing.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Mar 24, 2012, 08:00 PM
(#4)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
thx guys put my play on hold until we can all decide which way is the best root to go with my BR
 
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Sat Mar 24, 2012, 08:13 PM
(#5)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
play 50 $3.50 45 man games report back here every ten games


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Mar 25, 2012, 07:57 AM
(#6)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
thx grade b but do you think 3.50 a bit extreme from ,25 cents?
 
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Sun Mar 25, 2012, 08:53 AM
(#7)
jergul's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 80
hehe, I will give you very concrete advice. I think you are a winning player under the condition that you play on average more than 2000 people in your tournaments (you are a bit marginal, so you cannot afford small games that have a higher rake % of your total winnings).

My advice then is go big. Play as many large tournaments as you can with an AVERAGE buy-in of 1.10 USD (you can play higher than 1.10 if you also play lower. You need to average out at that to cover amplitude/variance/fluctuations). I chose this level because its a sufficient leap from your current comfort zone. Dont go higher.

Focus on building up your multi-table capability I think best. If you lose 60 dollars off current bankroll, then rethink and cut back tables. At 100 dollars loss, then lower stake levels to 0.55 on average to protect your remaining bankroll.

Dont go above 1.10 on average until you breech a 500 USD bankroll. This is for big mtts. The smaller ones will drain you (to repeat my point).

And stay away from the SNGs at any buy-in level until you are less marginal (sorry to contradict you b ).

Feel free to ignore of course. But I do know a lot more about these kind of decisions than I do any other aspect of poker playing. Not that that is saying much
 
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Sun Mar 25, 2012, 09:04 AM
(#8)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
thx jergul duely noted advice thx
 
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Mon Mar 26, 2012, 08:18 PM
(#9)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
@jergul

I think your reasoning on the higher rake % of your winnings and it's making MTT play a better option,especially for marginal players, is flawed for a couple reasons.

One being that the percentage of rake versus your earnings in the standard MTT if you min-cash is actually going to be higher,not lower. Be it an MTT or a SNG,from STT's all the way up to the .09+.01 360's if you like,one is paying roughly 10% in rake. 2c on a .25 45 man up to .40 on a $4.50 180,and the everything in between. But it's going to be roughly 10% for any of these,just like the 10% you'll be hit for in MTT's for the most part.

And the truth is that min-cashing in SNG's pays much better against your buy-in (whether you want to include the rake or not...) than min-cashing in MTT's does. Yes if one does run deep in an MTT it's much more lucrative than winning most SNG's,but those deep runs in MTT's are not something that even the best MTT players see very often.

And that's the biggest flaw I see in your reasoning actually---any rake % difference comparisons,were they to be viable or not,simply pale in comparison against the huge difference in variance that is inherent between MTT's and SNG's. Quite simply the more players you put in the mix,the greater the variance in events is going to be. This is why many SUCCESSFUL MTT players are staked and/or sell pieces of themselves---to combat and dilute the effects of the HUGE variance swings which are part and parcel of MTT play.

In effect,if one can find an SNG at each level they climb that they are capable of grinding profitably that's what they often use to fund their MTT plays. Basically you grind SNG's for steady money and you play MTT's for the binks. They may not be sexy,but they are a far superior opportunity for a marginal player to grow their BR than trying to grind MTT's almost exclusively. It's all about the variance.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Mon Mar 26, 2012 at 08:21 PM..
 
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Mon Mar 26, 2012, 09:02 PM
(#10)
jergul's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 80
Moxie
thanks for the comment.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that for many players it makes sense to pay more in rake to decrease variance. That is an option for players actually profiting over time, but it is not a good option for a player that loses with high rakes as a % of his gross winnings, but who would either profit, or lose a lot less if the total rake % had been lower.

I think it very clear that Mace is the perfect candidate for rake minimizing strategies. He is likely to lose money if he does not, but has the bankroll to carry inherently high variance mtts (hell, its the high variance that gave him the bankroll). This is particularly true given that his comfort zone of play is certainly no higher than 1.1 buy-in on average. Which makes staking redundant as he should not be playing higher for a while yet, and he has the bank roll for that level as mentioned.

In my case, the rake amounts to 5% of gross winnings and 12% of net winnings (since I got a tracker - still in negative territory overall). This due entirely to making the right decision one what kind of game to play. This decision has saved me at least one bankroll if not more.

Check your comparative numbers to clearly see this point.

Simply put. Mace following my advice will most likely be a profitable player. He will most likely lose money until his skill improves if he plays small games. This due entirely to how the rake works in practice.
 
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Mon Mar 26, 2012, 09:02 PM
(#11)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
holdem as far as what may or may not be best for you to do with this new BR and the opportunities it presents I think you need to look at it within the realities of your own prior BRM characteristics and your mindset,specifically your tendency to eschew proper BRM when things go badly and the focus issues that seem to plague you when they go well.

So just as important to managing your BR here is going to be managing and challenging yourself.

Now you already showed some skepticism to the idea of jumping all the way from 25c to $3.50 SNG's in one fell swoop and I think that's good judgement on your part. Just because you're now sufficiently rolled to play those doesn't necessarily mean you should be playing them just yet. For one thing they're STT's,which don't seem to be in your wheelhouse. Also even at the $3.50 level there are enough regs that profit will be hard to come by at first and unless you're willing to put a big grind in. And even then it takes a lot of volume to grind out real profit here as it's incrementally achieved.

Also given your tiltish tendencies I believe that being extra conservative with your BR will serve you best in both the long and short term.

As far as SNG's go the 45's seem to be your preference. Well I think the $1 ones you've already gravitated to are your best option for the time being. You're deeply rolled for them so that will give you security to guard against any bad variance and possible tilt. And it IS a step up form where you were.

Now make a challenge of it---take $25 and start a Cowboy Challenge run. See if you can take that original $25 and play 100 $1 45's on it and if so see how much of a profit you can return. Then see if you can beat it again. This will give you a goal and in trying to achieve this goal you should start to impart more discipline into your game selection,your routine and your goals.

Beyond the $1 45's it will get a little dicier as you move forward as you're going to start running into more Turbo and KO options,and STT's as well. But since there are 45's at the next logical step above where you were before and where you are now BR wise I think you should take advantage of it and start there.

As far as MTT's go...yeah probably grinding at the $1.10-$2.20 level to start would be the best option for you. Again it's very conservative but that may be the best route for you to take as you continue to work on the mental aspects of your game and decision making/goal setting process off the tables. Learn how to scour the schedule for the games that have the best value and are most likely to be the best fits for you in regards to structure and when they are played. This is a good habit to get into as game selection with the goal of the games you play being most advantageous to you is great mindset to learn.


If you're thinking of setting any money aside to try the rings again HAVE A PLAN and a set of achievable goals in mind. The xflixx 2NL to 100NL challenge is a great example of this. If you're worried about starting out at NLHE then try a grind up challenge on FLHE if you like. Say starting with 25 stacks of 25 big bets per stack at .05/.10 FLHE (25 x $2.50 = $62.50 ) and trying to get that stack up to what would be necessary for 25 stacks of 25 big bets per stack for the next level---.10/.20---which would mean $125.

This is where you're going to find out a lot about yourself holdem. You have a playable roll now...can you play it? Having and meeting goals is the best way to stay on the path and move forward,otherwise you just get in the cycle of doing what you have been doing---win a little money and then just strew and spew it all over the site playing whatever suited your fancy at the moment.

Yes one should have fun whilst playing but you say that for you a lot of the idea of fun would be in achievement. That's good,that's exactly my mindset as well and I hope to get back to it soon.

But without discipline and goal setting you'll never get there. These are small and achievable goals within your BR and not the only options out there for you for sure. But since it's a new idea of a way forward for you maybe starting smaller is the best one for you.

That you'll have to answer for yourself,but here I've provided some options/ideas for you.
 
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Tue Mar 27, 2012, 03:12 AM
(#12)
jergul's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 80
(there is a post about RB I made seconds before the one above changed pages.

To sum up.

I suggested you stay away from cash and rush, No one contradicted that, so take it as gold. Those kind of games are horrible for someone with tiltish tendencies to name one thing.

Pay heed to the average buy-in cost for tournaments of various sizes (and classify them according to size including single table "tournaments") you play. The average size is what counts in terms of BR management. So if you grind a lot of small ones, then you can play a big one and the BR risk remains acceptable.

Satellites might be very good for you when available. But always cash them in to t-dollars so you don't feel pressured to play when not in mood or have distractions.

The average size of tournaments is what matters (using the expanded tournament definition where a single table sng is thought of as a tournament). So 45 games are of course fine even by my reckoning for as long as you also play huge tournaments. I would still strongly urge you to average a field of at least 750 (discounting the 100k and pso).

Keep an eye on net winnings by tourney type to verify what seems to work for you. You don't need to be fancy about it. It works if you are in the black (making a profit) once you have sufficient reference matches. Following it by month is best. Starting in April for example.

And here are two failsafes to protect your BR

1. IF you lose 25% of current bank roll, THEN immediately increase the average field you face to 1 250.

2. IF you lose 50% of BR, THEN immediately reduce the average by-in by 50%. Increase average field you face to 2 000.

There we are. A compromise between what I think is optimal, and what other players think you should do.

(and where is the "Micro Stakes Professional since 2012" byline on signature? It would be funny)
 
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Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:39 AM
(#13)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
As STT's go, if anything games become slightly easier at higher levels before becoming difficult again.

The reason I say is that players start to realise they are allowed to fold hands and your bets get respected. There are still plenty of bad players but on the whole, you get one or two that have a clue and share your work to KO the bad ones. I would still concentrate on building up a level at a time as beating the lowest stakes gives you a great grounding when you reach higher levels.

I'm similar to you and at $3.50 stakes and from yesterday I'm back to 4 x tabling them. My thinking is 4 x tabling is easier than 1 tabling a $15 STT because of the poorer standard. I've played STT's up to $20 before on another site and $20 was really the stage where table selection became more important and the game became more difficult.

If you're happy playing 25c then there's nothing to stop you staying there. If you're consistently beating them then try adding another table and playing 2 at a time, your ROI may drop a little but you'll win twice as fast. Then add a 3rd, 4th up to whatever you're comfortable with. This only works if you're winning! If you start losing again then stop multi tabling. You need a big enough sample to know whether your winning or not but stop if your bankroll can't take it or your not happy with your play.

Remember different STT's have a different structures and your game needs to adapt to each.

I'm in a similar boat to you atm but I've been up stakes before, I've just a habit of needing my bankroll for other things and I have to start building again.
 
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Tue Mar 27, 2012, 10:27 AM
(#14)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
ty guys really appreciated some quality advice there to think about, and moxie your right i do just jump into whatever i fancy thoughtless and spew lol, thx for the multitable advice oval but without software i find that hard work lol but i do like the sugestion of staying at 25c i can see a real valued point to that. and yes maybe will try a few multitable at tha level of buyin,and thx jergul on the advice of staying away from cash and run games.
great advice all round thx and will be back if i start to struggle for more help ty i just got get my ed around keeping my stack and stop thinking job done my mindset is terrible lol thx
 
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Tue Mar 27, 2012, 04:52 PM
(#15)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hi!

The following are some general thoughts you might want to consider...

MTT:

MTT are good for a losing player because they tend to net you the highest POSSIBLE return for a set BI amount. You cannot tilt off multiple BI (unless you play rebuy events), and a single deep run can keep you in action quite a long time; this can give you time to improve your skills to break even or better.

The down side of MTTs are that you will go a lot FARTHER between cashes than in other types of play, and also (as Moxie notes) a min cash is not very lucrative when you factor in rake. Additionally, for a player prone to "tilt" the discipline needed for MTT play may not be present.

SNG:

SNG are not ideal for a long term losing player, largely because much of SNG play has become "formulaic"; there tend to be a decent number of players who know the "formula" even at micro stakes.

While SNG tend to return a higher frequency of cashes than MTT, each cash will tend to be SMALLER in relation to the size of your BI than is possible in MTT play. As such, you can see a severe depletion of your available amount of money in the short term, while you are becoming more familiar with the needs of SNG play.

If "patience" is an issue for you, the shorter duration of SNG play can allow you to avoid a large time commitment though. Also, you retain the "tilt protection" against the loss of multiple BI that you get from MTT play. The greater frequency of cashes in SNG may may also help keep you "motivated" to improve, as successes tend to work better for that than the larger number of "failures" you might see in MTT play.

Cash Game Play:

This is by far the "best" game for consistent and sustainable profit if you have already demonstrated you can be a long term winning player. If you have not demonstrated this though, cash games can be quite disheartening, as well as damaging to your available money supply.

Playing cash for long term sustainable profit takes an inordinate amount of discipline, and many players who struggle with money management issues simply do not have what it takes to LEAVE a cash game with a small loss when they are not playing at their best.

This can lead to a pattern of winning sessions that tend to be pretty close to losing session in size, and as it can be quite hard for a NL cash player to book much more than 60% or 65% winning sessions playing their A game throughout, minimizing losses by STOPPING play when you are not at your best becomes critical to profitability. If you cannot think you are able to do this from your past patterns, you may put multiple BI onto the table to "get even".

SPECIALTY GAMES:

"Zoom Poker" Cash games:

These can be decent for control tilt that manifests itself in the form of playing too many hands. Immediately receiving another hand can make it pretty easy to "wait" for a strong hand to play.

The draw back of this game type is that you lack any ability to have information on what mistakes opponents might make, so you are pretty much relegated to a strict "value range" to play; you may not be able to assess how WIDE your value range can go because of lack of info.

"Multi Tabling" Cash games:

Like Zoom poker, this can tend to compensate for some issues with discipline in hand selection criteria. As you cannot have much info on specific players (at least not until you've played long enough to build a considerable data base with a HUD), you will tend to be forced into playing a strict value range when multi-tabling.

If you are a winning player normally, your ROI on individual tables probably will DECREASE as a result of multi-tabling, but the greater number of tables played should show a net increase in your hourly ROI. If you are a losing player though, and much of your losing is a result poor start hand selection, your negative long term ROI may actually INCREASE from multi tabling.

Short Handed Cash Games:

These can be a viable option for a player who has discipline issues in the form of playing too loosely; short tables call for a loosening of standards anyway. Again though, short handed cash game play tends to see more "specialists" who may have a skill advantage over your through greater experience with the format.

50/50 SNG:

Under the old "DoN" structure, these games had very little going for them in my opinion. The rake was too highly in terms of what the potential return was, and that required you to cash far more than half the time to break even.

With the new "chip count weighted" structure though, these can be an intriguing option for a player with discipline/looseness issues, as that particular "leak" tends to result in either LARGE early chip ups, or early busts in MTT/SNG formats. Ther eis a lot to be said in these games for chipping up quickly.

Still, a good percentage of the prize you might net from these games will come from lasting until the top half of the field, so a "go big or go home" style is not as conducive to play in these games necessarily, as it would be in a large field MTT.

Mutil Table SNG (18/27/45/90/180 man events):

These tend to be a good compromise between the long duration/high pay off potential of large field MTT, and the greater frequency of cashes in single table SNG but with a lower return. They generally require use of MTT type strategies (although the smaller the field size, the more they tend to resemble single table play), but do have less in the way of potential returns.

MY THOUGHTS FOR YOU:

I'll be honest HEA486, from your posts here in the forum, plus your past issues with managing the money you had to play on, I would think the best option for you MIGHT be playing multi table SNG.

You can stay in action quite a long time on $250 if you stick to $1 or $2 events, and this can give you the time you need to improve your decisions (that is IF you do not rest on your current success, and strive to IMPROVE further).

You will probably see enough "success" to keep you motivated, and a single "win" can replace the money you are out from 12 or more "losses".

To be really honest, I'd not sweat rake considerations very much at your current level, because from what I have seen from your posts you are not quite at the point where the rake is the ONLY thing keeping you from being profitable (not a slam, just my perception).

You also seem the type who ascribes losses to the "magic powers" of some vast conspiracy, so a beat or 2 taken in a SNG or Cash game might be cause for you to start steaming at higher and higher limits. It may be that a loss or 2 does the same thing to you in multi table SNG's, but because they will tend to return some $ to your pocket in a shorter TIME than playing MTTs might, you might be able to come off that "tilt" faster if/when you do bink a nice cash in a multi table SNG.

There is very little that can be MORE DAMAGING to your chance of staying in action than to jump up to levels for which you are not funded. Doing that sets you up to loss AT LEAST as often as you would at lower levels, but each loss costs considerably MORE. Since any MTT/SNG will include far more losses than wins no matter HOW good you are, this can easily deplete your money VERY FAST...

So don't do that at all, EVER, if you want to stay in action without another deposit...

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner
 
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Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:56 AM
(#16)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
ty jd for some great advice and thoughts there, i have now got over the initial shock of a decent win and pulled myself together after a $20 joy/antitilt lol, and looking at the thoughts and advice have definate decided to keep my buyins cheap.
have all ready noticed that bigger buyins even though offer bigger prizes are not necesarily a good thing a if you lose the reverse happens and your br can deplete rapidly.i.e careless $20 doller loss all ready.
thx for the solid advice and keeping me on track,
 
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Wed Mar 28, 2012, 11:22 AM
(#17)
jergul's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 80
Just remember that the truth for a losing player is often the opposite of what is true for a winning player.

For example a losing player maxes out his profit by not playing at all. Which give a clearly superior 0 ROI. A winning player wants to play more, a losing player wants to play less.

Ultimately a losing player is buying time to improve to become a winning player.

There is a reason I am reading books for example. The direct ROI is 0 (which I am happy with currently) with an implicit indirect ROI improvement over time. So I am buying time by not playing under the assumption study improves my game somehow.

I discount the cost of books because I like books and think them worth the money regardless of any improvement in the future.
 

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