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did i play right?

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did i play right? - Fri Mar 30, 2012, 02:48 PM
(#1)
77wopke77's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
BronzeStar
i know this is a bad beat but i think i couldn't play this any different! only 1 thin sucks real bad and that this is again a premier league early exit!!

i mean is it so wrong to call $50 on a $350 pot to see a flop? and if u flop the nuts extract value to come over the top??

somebody pls look at this and teach me!!


Last edited by 77wopke77; Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 02:55 PM..
 
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Fri Mar 30, 2012, 03:05 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by 77wopke77 View Post
i mean is it so wrong to call $50 on a $350 pot to see a flop?
I'd like to hear what members think about this. It raises interesting questions... Is competing the SB there a good investment or blowing away money? What kinds of hands are okay to complete the SB in that spot? Is completing ever good, or should you only be looking to enter with a raise?

^^^That's a fun discussion waiting to happen.

Why such a small bet on the flop? Usually you bet big when you want to extract value, because the bigger you bet, the more value you get. Curious what your thought process was there.
 
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Fri Mar 30, 2012, 03:17 PM
(#3)
77wopke77's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
BronzeStar
i placed the small bet to lure them out to bet or raise, the tight type of tour the premier leuague is. i hoped for anybody on a draw to come out on me instead of folding to a big bet!

i asked for aktion by that bet.
 
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Fri Mar 30, 2012, 03:38 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I'd like to hear what members think about this. It raises interesting questions... Is competing the SB there a good investment or blowing away money? What kinds of hands are okay to complete the SB in that spot? Is completing ever good, or should you only be looking to enter with a raise?
This may sound like a shameless plug for Live Training attendance, but this is a topic that is routinely discussed! We talk about this in my classroom at least a couple times a month, sometimes more depending on how often it comes up. I've also heard ChewMe1 address it directly in a class as well.

Calling in this spot is sometimes ok. Doing it with any 2 cards is not, people justify this with pot odds but this is a leak. If we were going to be all in and there was no more betting, then sure the pot odds are great even with any 2. But there is a lot more money to bet, and we are out of position.

You can call with good speculation hands (stuff that has some reasonable post flop playability). You can certainly call wider than normal due to the pot odds, but just not any 2. Raise with value hands or in very good squeeze steal spots only imo. A good general rule of thumb for what kinds of hands you can speculate with in this spot is to ask yourself if you would call a full limp from the button (based on your holding, stack sizes, who's in the blinds, etc). If it's good enough to speculate for 1BB on the button, it's probably ok to do so for a half a BB from the small blind position (position is that important!).

I heard Jon Van Fleet (apestyles) put it very nicely once... calling in these spots is essentially purchasing the right to play a bad hand out of position. Why do you want to do that?

I think in this actual hand it's very close. I'm ok with the call if I feel very sure the BB won't raise, but in this case the guy is super short and if he decides to make a stand here and ships, we can not call again and have leaked off 1BB... not great on stacks of 30 bb's. But J9o has some playability to it, so it's close but ok. We have to be very careful in this type of spot that we don't flop top pair and lose a ton of chips to it when we're beat... if we're not confident we can navigate that scenario well then this is a clear fold preflop, since that exact scenario will be the one most likely to come up.

Post flop we bet too small on the flop, many worse hands can and will continue for a larger bet so make the larger bet and grow the pot. And of course getting all in with the nuts is good, no problem there.

Hope this helps,
Dave


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Fri Mar 30, 2012, 04:15 PM
(#5)
77wopke77's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
BronzeStar
it sure helps, but i tried a little more LAG approach in the tournament because my normal play screwed up my chances for next month.

My next question is in this:

How much to bet if u want to have maximum action in a hand?

i mean if u have 3 callers preflop and u flop the nuts and u are sure 2 out 3 will fold if u bet big but u want them in??

i know it's risky but lately i somehow get crushed when playing basic TAG so i try a different approach
 
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Fri Mar 30, 2012, 04:31 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 77wopke77 View Post
My next question is in this:

How much to bet if u want to have maximum action in a hand?

i mean if u have 3 callers preflop and u flop the nuts and u are sure 2 out 3 will fold if u bet big but u want them in??
I think about half the pot is good. Here that's 200 instead of 100, but in this case I would adjust it down to 175... since the BB has 350 left if he shoves over 175 it will reopen the betting for us so of one of the other guys calls we can then raise again and further tie them into the pot.

You aren't sure 2 out of 3 will fold, to any size bet, and if they are they will likely not call 100 anyway. I mean if you think they won't call 200 loose they're not going to say oh well it's only 100 I call with my air now, right?

Edit: Alternatively you could bet 200-250 and hope the BB has something and shoves. Now it doesn't reopen the betting but it may help grow the pot by "tricking" the other guys into calling a bit looser (they know you can't raise again, and may not respect the short stack shove as much as a 350 bet directly from you), so it further ties them in anyway and grows the pot nicely.


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Last edited by TheLangolier; Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 04:33 PM..
 

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