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Value betting

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Value betting - Thu Apr 12, 2012, 07:39 PM
(#1)
hamburglarid's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 131
SilverStar


I don't have many hands on this opponent, but based on the way he played this hand it looks like he is quite passive. I'm wondering about my play on the river. The ten of clubs was an awful card, the flush got there and there is a four card straight on the board. Is this a spot for a thin value bet or did I play it right?
 
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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 10:09 AM
(#2)
Sjekkkk's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 141
I would have made a valuebet even with two pair,

Many opponents would bet a made flush here, since there is also a straigth and you would get alot of value from a straigth so I wouldn´t be too worried about a flush.

90% of the times here your opponent will be on top pair two pair or overpair kind of hand and willing to check it down due to showdown value, (they don´t want to play a big pot with such a hand on such a coordinated board).

There are two things you can note from this opponent:
1. he either is a very tricky and slowplayer person or
2. he is very nitty and does not even valuebet with 2nd set on a straigth board with flush draw on the turn.

I once stacked an calling station on such a board with just top two pair, because it is so likely for people to bet/raise flush and straigths.
 
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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 10:22 AM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi Hamb,

I am a pretty big proponent of thin value betting, but in this hand I think it's too thin.

I don't disagree with Sj that we will get check-called by 2 pairs, overpairs, and top pairs... the problem for me is I don't think he's gotten to the river with anything that qualifies. The villain raises pre, then check-calls on a flop of Q97. Mostly I would expect the villain to be c-betting AQ or an overpair here. I don't expect them to ever really have QJ or QT... if they would raise those pre I suspect they'd c-bet them as well on this flop. When the preflop raiser check-calls the flop on this board I expect them to often be on a pocket pair lower than the Q, or AK. And that range is a problem for us since we are beating none of it on the river. In order for the thin value bet to be good we need to be called by more worse hands than better, but the types of worse hands that I think will check/call us on this board, really aren't in his range the way this hand has played out.

Hope this helps.

Dave


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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 10:54 AM
(#4)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Is representing the straight or flush a viable option on the river?

Cheers,

TC
 
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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:46 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
Is representing the straight or flush a viable option on the river?

Cheers,

TC
Not really imo... I mean yes we can rep that but there's not much point in turning our set into a bluff since I don't think better hands will fold. If he does have JJ/TT/AK he won't like it but he will call would be my guess. All the hands I think would fold to our river bet we're beating anyway with our set, so I would just check it down.


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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 04:31 PM
(#6)
hamburglarid's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 131
SilverStar
I thought that I played it right, but I just wanted to be sure. I think that one of my weaknesses is that I don't valuebet the river enough. The idea of turning my hand into a bluff isn't going to work at 2nl... anything that beats me is calling.
 
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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 06:03 PM
(#7)
Sjekkkk's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 141
It is a close one here, however I dont really see any AK here in his range as you mentioned dave.
Perhaps he made a straight with KQ but then again, as you said he probably would bet the flop.
his range as I perceive on the river is JJ and TT definately,
QJ QT JT A9 A7 perhaps T9 J9. maybe AK.

Also you can eliminate KK AA QQ AQ pretty much, unless a player loves to trap.

So you beat more than beats you, I can understand you check it back, it is really personal. I go along with my read and in this case I´d bet.

anyway well played
 
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Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:06 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjekkkk View Post
It is a close one here, however I dont really see any AK here in his range as you mentioned dave.
Perhaps he made a straight with KQ but then again, as you said he probably would bet the flop.
his range as I perceive on the river is JJ and TT definately,
QJ QT JT A9 A7 perhaps T9 J9. maybe AK.

Also you can eliminate KK AA QQ AQ pretty much, unless a player loves to trap.

So you beat more than beats you, I can understand you check it back, it is really personal. I go along with my read and in this case I´d bet.

anyway well played
AK is iffy... if the villain would check/call the flop with it he'll probably call the turn pretty often when he picks up a gut shot. But that's a lot of maybe.

Stuff like QT, T9 etc is not likely in his preflop raising range... the (very limited) info we have on the villain is somewhat passive... passive guys don't raise those hands they limp or fold them. Basically all those 2 pair combos just don't play the hand this way preflop, and on the flop/turn very often imo. It's possible of course, but I don't think likely. A9/A7 don't matter as they aren't calling our river bet anyway I'm guessing you'd agree.

fwiw I think we're on the same page regarding going for thin value, we simply differ on the range of hands villain has gotten to the river with in this manner.

Good discussion!

Dave


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Sat Apr 14, 2012, 10:56 AM
(#9)
nee0903's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 61
I think you played it perfectly here..I would not value bet on the river..if a passive villain calls u down till the river especially on such a scary board...
Your read was indeed correct..the villain is very passive and( i think most likely weak also)..as it should have been a check raise on the turn from the villain on a draw heavy board..
 

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