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10NL 6-max flatting a 4-bet with QQ

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10NL 6-max flatting a 4-bet with QQ - Sun Apr 15, 2012, 01:52 PM
(#1)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
I dipped my toe in the water at 10NL intending to run away from sticky spots -

From live training a couple of things stuck in my head:

Relative hand strength when deep stacked.
Don't flat a 3-bet, fold or raise.

- and then this happened. I flatted a 4-bet with QQ should I go to the bottom of the class?

Zoom hand no reads.

I open raise UTG 3x and the Button 3-bets

I am going to 4-bet never calling or folding but... SB 4-bets before me I'm thinking AK

I flat thinking QQ are OK (relative to investment so far?) and I'll run away with overs on the flop

What... Button jams and SB calls This has to be a cooler AA, KK and QQ 6-max easy escape.

So what did the button 3-bet and later jam with? Was it wrong to call the SB 4-bet?



Thanks


Last edited by ForrestFive; Sun Apr 15, 2012 at 01:53 PM.. Reason: and later
 
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Mon Apr 16, 2012, 12:54 AM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hi ForrestFive.

Why are you thinking AK when the blind 4bets? Ranging an opp on a single hand can be VERY dangerous...

And even if you are, why aren't you willing to 5bet all in to take a race when there is potentially $1.10 in the pot to give you over lay to flip vs AK (if the BTN mucks)?

If he has AK and misses the flop, you have really no clue if he will C bet into your flat, so you have no clue if you can extract more by flatting then shipping an over pair, so you may was well risk the flip and go for it with the over lay already there...

Realisitically, I could see a flat of the 4bet with QQ if you could close the betting (any over on the flop would be a strong threat to you), but with the button acting after you, you can easily see the shove that you are trying to avoid if you flat along. If that is the case, your only real option is either to shove yourself and take what you think is a flip, or fold while it is still cheaper.

Hope it helps.

-JDean


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Mon Apr 16, 2012, 12:40 PM
(#3)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Thanks JDean,

I'm thinking maybe the button is 3-betting light, then the blind does what I wanted to do. Flatting to see a cheaper flop was bad.

I realize ranging AK is an excuse to stay involved I should have just folded. Based on the play in front of me I'm not risking my whole stack with QQ.

Your analysis of what could have happened is spot on. I'd didn't think it through in the heat of the moment.

 
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Mon Apr 16, 2012, 02:43 PM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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Man that is nasty. If SB was new and I had no reads/stats on him, I am probably just letting QQ go. You raised UTG which is strong, Button 3-bets your UTG raise which is also a strong move, and even then SB 4-bets big. If Button flatted your opening raise then SB could be squeezing, but that isn't what happened here. The button 3-bet.

Against an unkown player just fold you only have 3BB's invested.

If you have history with both players and have them classified as LAG or 3-bet/4-bet happy you could consider shoving. Flatting is just a bad idea here with or without the button left to act. The potential for the button to shove does make calling a much worse idea though.

Odds vs possible 4-bet range of AA,KK, QQ, AKs, AKo -
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...c?sitId=165659

Last edited by RockerguyAA; Mon Apr 16, 2012 at 02:46 PM..
 
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Mon Apr 16, 2012, 03:05 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
imo this is a fold preflop without reads. Most players cold 4-b range will have us smashed. I think we're looking at QQ+ the vast majority of the time here. Even if the villain would cold 4b all combos of AK as well, we are still a 60-40 dog, and that's our best case scenario.

The read that would change it for me would be knowing the SB can cold 4B light sometimes. At 10nl they are few and far between, and usually have very LAGgy stats.


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Mon Apr 16, 2012, 10:21 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
imo this is a fold preflop without reads. Most players cold 4-b range will have us smashed. I think we're looking at QQ+ the vast majority of the time here. Even if the villain would cold 4b all combos of AK as well, we are still a 60-40 dog, and that's our best case scenario.

The read that would change it for me would be knowing the SB can cold 4B light sometimes. At 10nl they are few and far between, and usually have very LAGgy stats.
I agree with this entirely.

If I MAY have to fold to a shove, I'd rather just fold my initial raise rather than pay off the 4bet then fold more expensively.


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