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Pokerstars sends "cease and desist" order to Poker Table Ratings

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Pokerstars sends "cease and desist" order to Poker Table Ratings - Fri Apr 20, 2012, 01:05 AM
(#1)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Didn't see this addressed anywhere else so I thought I would start a thread here in the community meet up section on it.

Don't want to post links the site may not be cool with but trust me,if you google "Stars cease and desist with PTR" or something of that nature you'll get plenty of hits.

Good on Stars for this IMO. Very,very shady practices at that site.
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 02:02 AM
(#2)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
PTR site was down the other day. I thought it was a big deal, but nobody was talking about it. Site was back up a few hours later...

The one thing I love about these types of sites is I can prove, for a FACT, in under 30 seconds that poker is more skill based than luck over the long run. Simply search any long term winning player and all the proof is right there.

That said, everything about sites like PTR is unethical, against Pokerstars TOS, and probably straight up illegal (as far as I can tell).
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 04:04 AM
(#3)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
I'm not a regular cash game player, so I've had little reason to take an interest in this site. However, the attitude of many (anti) is somewhat strange in my view and I really don't understand why.

Like a lot of Poker players I also have an interest in Horse racing. If you were to take a similar stand in that field I presume you would have to ban the publication of any form guides. If that happened, the only way you could establish whether you might be throwing your money away would be to either have attended all the runners previous races or establish a relationship with "connections". Very few people would be able to do this, and as a consequence I'm sure that the levy imposed on bookmakers would soon dry up and ultimately lead to the collapse of the sport. That "levy" can in some ways be compared to rake. Without it, the organisor ceases to have a reason to exist.

No doubt the powers that be at Pokerstars have fully thought through their actions and believe it to be in the best interests of the company and the industry as a whole. I'm not convinced. Only time will tell.
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 04:54 AM
(#4)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
This is an interesting development and yet again I find myself agreeing with Darkman.

If the Pokerstar cease and desist was across the board for all companies involved in various types of "datamining" then I would have no issue but the fact that some companies who sell hand histories that can be uploaded to HUDs are not targeted leaves a bit of a sour taste.

Indeed many sites, where Pokerstars are the major advertiser, are also advertising alternative "datamining" services which seem for some reason to go under the radar. I really wonder what the reason for this is

I personally do not use a HUD, but can see the benefit in doing so, if you are a serious rather than recreational player.

As a fairly heavy gambler in horse racing in the past I can also see the analogy with form guides and tipsters (trainers). There is a huge industry outside the actual game of poker itself where many derive a substantial income for these "services". Are Pokerstars going to go after these companies as well?

Cheers,

TC
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 05:47 AM
(#5)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Quote found "Whether we are providing replays of infamous hot streaks, colossal downswings, finding critical security breaches in poker software clients or publicly outing bot and collusion rings for the sake of game integrity, PokerTableRatings has had a long history of being actively involved in the online poker community.

Recent contact by Stars has led to the removal of this network’s player profiles from PTR. The current management team of PTR has been in place for just under a year and since day 1 we have been exploring ways to compromise with brands in order to create positive relationships for the betterment of the community. Through these valued partnerships we have created innovative promotions and features for our users and have many more in development. Unfortunately we have been unable to gain communication with Stars during this time and it has come to a hostile dissolution of service for this brand. They have taken formal action against us and we will comply with their demands and have the brand removed from the site.

The most contentious aspects of PTR seem to be the premium services we provide, namely player stats, however when compared to widely-accepted poker HUDs from other software providers, we believe the differences are negligible. Tools exist to give advantages to players who know how to use them and who are willing to pay for them, plain and simple and these will not go away. Players will always be looking for advantages and we are just one of many services offering an advantage.

That said, we will fully adhere to the cease and desist notice by Stars, though we do not believe that we are a disservice to the online poker community. We continue to search and most importantly detect bot rings month after month and provide information about these true game-breaking activities to brands that care about the integrity of their games. We’ve provided unrivaled publicity to players who have gone on to become sponsored celebrities of the online poker world and we have given all players a public forum to show off their impressive wins or gain sympathy for their crushing defeats.

We still fully believe in our product and will continue to introduce new and exciting features to our customers. We have been actively developing new tools that will give more control and ownership of profiles to their respective players so that PTR can be a service that every poker player would be proud to use. The latest events, though a disruption in our plans, do not derail them. Our team is committed to evolving PTR even further in order to continue to provide hundreds of thousands of members of the online poker community with valued services and tools to keep the game of poker fun and engaging for all." End quote.

Good.

Difference is if you,I or anyone else for that matter purchases or runs a free trial of a HUD/tracker software like HEM or PT3 Jig we get the stats on players who land on our tables only.

That means that even if they aren't running a similar tool on us they could still be taking notes on our play themselves. And they also have a chance to extract money and/or chips from us for the information we are getting from them. Just as we can do should the roles be reversed,i.e. if THEY are running the tracking software and we are the ones who are "naked" at the table.

That's NOT what PTR is about. They take much more than just bare bone stats from here and provide them at their site (unlike say OPR for example,which just lists your tourneys entered--the ones they track anyway---your ITM % and your ROI,plus average buy-in,where you tend to bust,etc.). PTR was providing insights into HOW people played---VPIP,c-bet%,fold to c-bet---all of that AND actual HH's to boot.

Now if a player is actually sitting at my table and running a HUD to extract that information then I,for one,am fine with that. As I said earlier,I can be getting info on them as well,even without running a HUD myself. And I can make them PAY for that info by taking chips/money from them.

PTR was just opening the book on all of us with no effort required from those that may want that information to get it themselves by actually sitting at a table with any of us. If I have a HUD up and aren't actually on the same table with you Jig,or anyone else,then as far as MY HUD is concerned you aren't playing. Big,big difference. And PTR full well knows this so their defense here is rather self serving to say the least.

As for Top and Darkman's offerings about any other sites that do precisely what PTR does,or anything approximating it...well yeah,I for one would like to see them kneecapped as well.

One last thing,and since as an American this doesn't affect me in the least at the moment but IS something you all should consider...a lot of the peeps who will lament Stars doing this in other forums are the same individuals who used PTR to "bumhunt" their sessions---scour the tables looking for the fishiest of fish.

Many of those being sought out in such a way,whose HH's and thus actual playing styles and tendencies were being looked at in real time by opps on their tables that knew to do this right before sitting with them (and yeah,I'll bet my left one that plenty of people violated Stars TOS and even had the PTR client open whilst playing here...) don't know this was being done to them. All they knew is that players were kicking their teeth in session after session,sometimes maybe making what appeared to be crazy calls,but see those peeps had a book to make that call---without having to take the chance to write the book THEMSELVES,by actually sitting with the player.

How many times do you think these folks are going to re-load just to get nuked every time,not even knowing that they never even had a chance? You think that's good or bad for this industry and do you think PTR cares or are they just trying to make as many bucks as possible,as fast as possible?

Those are the questions I think about when I see an operator like them in this realm.

And the words of Amarillo Slim ring true here...

"You can shear a sheep over and over. But you can only skin him once."

Locking out operators like PTR is +EV for all of us in the grand scheme of things IMO.
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 06:06 AM
(#6)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
This is an interesting development and yet again I find myself agreeing with Darkman.

If the Pokerstar cease and desist was across the board for all companies involved in various types of "datamining" then I would have no issue but the fact that some companies who sell hand histories that can be uploaded to HUDs are not targeted leaves a bit of a sour taste.

Indeed many sites, where Pokerstars are the major advertiser, are also advertising alternative "datamining" services which seem for some reason to go under the radar. I really wonder what the reason for this is

I personally do not use a HUD, but can see the benefit in doing so, if you are a serious rather than recreational player.

As a fairly heavy gambler in horse racing in the past I can also see the analogy with form guides and tipsters (trainers). There is a huge industry outside the actual game of poker itself where many derive a substantial income for these "services". Are Pokerstars going to go after these companies as well?

Cheers,

TC
Hey Topper...

Again,with a HUD for any HH info to be loaded into it we would have to have a history with each other and ONLY that history would be in the HUD. Say for instance you and I tabled together in a league game for 39 hands and you also had a couple of 2NL tables open that I wasn't playing on. My HUD would not be tacking you on those tables (unless there's a way for me to "ghost" you and import it into the HUD,not sure on that---but even so that would still require an effort on my part that could be somewhat replicated by just normal shadowing and note taking...).

PTR was harvesting ring table hands on everybody at Stars and their HH's as well for whomever was willing to plunk down some change to see them. No effort required,so basically one could download Stars,make a deposit,go to PTR,buy HH's and start playing with peeps who have never had the opportunity to make a "book" on that player.

Sorry, where I come from that ain't Kosher.

As I said in my reply to Jig,if there are other sites that do that as well,then yeah...Stars needs to punt there butts as well.
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 07:07 AM
(#7)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Hey Moxie,

I actually had a look around the net earlier on this topic, just to get the Pokerstars stance and to see which products are permitted and which are prohibited and which are prohibited whilst playing. I also read the statements from Pokerstars on the cease and desist action against PTR and their reasoning on protecting recreational players.

An awful lot seems to centre around the "opt in/opt out" issue i.e. that players have the option of opting in or out of being tracked on these type of sites. I do not think that most recreational players would be aware of this and it appears that it is possible to purchase data on performance and import this to your HUD. Therefore, even with the demise of PTR, regulars can still bumhunt the weaker players even if the data is not actual hand histories or insight to play on different streets but an overview of the player performance generally.

And off course, there are at least four other companies that continue to sell hand histories that you can download to your HUD. I am not aufait with HUDs but I am sure that you can then configure the data to profile players that you have never played against on their HUD stats.

I am all for HUDs as an analysis tool but there is no doubt they give an extra edge whether that data is collected while playing or imported from other avenues.

The whole area really should be more tightly controlled and regulated.

Cheers,

TC
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 02:54 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Moxie your reply to me was showed an incorrect understanding of my post. I'm inded satisfied. By posting that story `when I said good I was demonstrating that it was good it existed. If not for pokerstars good actions it would not exist right? Posting it completely was just a way to show others the result of ps actions and since the op did not name to much due to his unsuredness about pso rules. I don't need to make that clear.

Btw, how to you get some other issue totally muddled from me posting that spiel and saying good? What do you think I refered to being good? I think you made a big leap imo.

You make the allegations you did towards me in your why are people posting less and is membership down thread a few weeks back and then have the temerity to come in here and accuse me of me of misunderstanding you.

Give me an effing break already. As per usual your post was part blather,part cryptic and part cut and paste. Forgive my confusion in trying to glean the intent of a post from a discombobulating troll.

This is all you do Jigjig---pick fights. Starts threads on a topic,invite responses and then want to tell peeps in what manner they can or can't respond.

Well then it's your turn in the barrel son. Please feel free to show yourself the Hell out of THIS discussion. Take your SPAM elsewhere.

Mods,seriously. And you wonder why the Hell no one posts here anymore.

Jaysus.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Fri Apr 20, 2012 at 02:59 PM..
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 03:17 PM
(#9)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
Hey Moxie,

I actually had a look around the net earlier on this topic, just to get the Pokerstars stance and to see which products are permitted and which are prohibited and which are prohibited whilst playing. I also read the statements from Pokerstars on the cease and desist action against PTR and their reasoning on protecting recreational players.

An awful lot seems to centre around the "opt in/opt out" issue i.e. that players have the option of opting in or out of being tracked on these type of sites. I do not think that most recreational players would be aware of this and it appears that it is possible to purchase data on performance and import this to your HUD. Therefore, even with the demise of PTR, regulars can still bumhunt the weaker players even if the data is not actual hand histories or insight to play on different streets but an overview of the player performance generally.

And off course, there are at least four other companies that continue to sell hand histories that you can download to your HUD. I am not aufait with HUDs but I am sure that you can then configure the data to profile players that you have never played against on their HUD stats.

I am all for HUDs as an analysis tool but there is no doubt they give an extra edge whether that data is collected while playing or imported from other avenues.

The whole area really should be more tightly controlled and regulated.

Cheers,

TC
My opinion Top is that as far as just posting someones dry stats,I really don't have a problem with that myself. I think,for one thing,that it actually promotes and encourages some (many) peeps to play more and better poker as most of us have enough of a competitive streak that we don't want to see our drawers out there,getting kicked all to Hell and back and flapping in the breeze for all to see.

If all PTR did was just list those numbers I,and many others,wouldn't have a problem with them. I'll freely admit and have here before that I was literally Chase Berger from the Micros videos---roughly 19,000 hands played before BF and was dead even. Your classic break even Micro donk.

An overview of a players general performance and actual insight into HOW a player plays are two vastly different animals in my opinion.

Say for example that I've just now decided to play rings. Made a deposit and then also bought info on players from PTR. I sit at a table and very first hand the MP1 seat makes a standard raise. I pull him up and see that his VPIP and PFR %'s are very much in line and that he also likes to C-bet quite a bit but will then check/fold a very large percentage of the time on the Turn. So without ever having to put the effort and the risk in I now have,instantly, a very solid read that this player is a perfect candidate to float.

That's just one example but you can see how far it could go I'm sure. Knowing a player is probably exploitable by knowing that they are a losing player is one thing,knowing EXACTLY where they are most easily exploited and how is quite a different kettle of fish IMHO.

As to the sites that sell players HH's...yeah as I said earlier in my view they 1001% need to go and any player caught as having purchased that info and then using it on the tables should be severely disciplined,if not outright perma banned from the site.

There are already enough peeps out there doing dirt as it is and conversely enough misconceptions and innuendos as to the integrity of this industry as a whole without actually promoting and endorsing companies that exist for the sole purpose of giving players an unfair advantage over the unsuspecting.
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 04:36 PM
(#10)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
I'm angry. REALLY bloody angry. I just spent an hour putting together a response here only to find I'd been logged out and lost everything I'd typed when I tried to post. I won't be attempting a re-post. Life's too short.

Who the hell introduced this marvellous innovation ???
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 05:09 PM
(#11)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
I'm angry. REALLY bloody angry. I just spent an hour putting together a response here only to find I'd been logged out and lost everything I'd typed when I tried to post. I won't be attempting a re-post. Life's too short.

Who the hell introduced this marvellous innovation ???
Have had that one happen to me on a few occasions as well D-man (there's a shock,I'm sure...).

Happened on several attempts to compose and enter my posts in the Micro Millions thread.

Yet another one of the "improvements" that are being done for our benefit I'm sure.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 05:23 PM
(#12)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Have had that one happen to me on a few occasions as well D-man (there's a shock,I'm sure...).
Not at all. In fact the very last line of my reply was "Wow Mox. That was almost as long as one of your posts"
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 06:46 PM
(#13)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
I agree.

I'm old.

I drop off a lot.

Time out in a poker game - OK my bad - I pay - but in the forums?

Now what did I come in here for?

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 06:49 PM
(#14)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
I agree.

I'm old.

I drop off a lot.

Time out in a poker game - OK my bad - I pay - but in the forums?

Now what did I come in here for?

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
Oh yes - I remember - without PTR - how do I know if I am a winning cash player or not???

Ed
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 07:43 PM
(#15)
RedLetterman's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 665
Have had it happen a number of times in various places - school online, google blog, here. COPY before posting.
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 08:11 PM
(#16)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
Oh yes - I remember - without PTR - how do I know if I am a winning cash player or not???

Ed

First, PTR is missing about 20-30% of the hands
Second, If you really want to know if you are a winning player, may I suggest PT3
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 08:36 PM
(#17)
Don B. Cilly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 394
Quote:
COPY before posting
Yes. you should do that. I do. It's Murphian Techno-world.

As you usually have your hands on the keyboard if you're posting... it's never Post, it's Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C, click. Like remembering to put your pants on before you leave the house. Always Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C, then Post, Send, Submit, Click Something.

If you ain't copied it, don't entrust it to the whims of software :)
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 08:51 PM
(#18)
hamburglarid's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 131
SilverStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
First, PTR is missing about 20-30% of the hands
Second, If you really want to know if you are a winning player, may I suggest PT3
It is easy to say that they are missing 20-30%, it doesn't matter that it isn't even close to being true,
 
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Fri Apr 20, 2012, 10:13 PM
(#19)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamburglarid View Post
It is easy to say that they are missing 20-30%, it doesn't matter that it isn't even close to being true,
????
Are you saying that what I said isn't true??
Because for me it is
I have every hand I ever played and when I compared with PTR, they were short 28%
I even did the test since Jan 1st 2012 since working on my goals. Been copying every number PTR posted vs my PT3 and they were missing 27.6% of the hands as of March 31st

I've even posted in their forum and send an email to support

So I'm very glad to see them OUT, now if they could do the same to all stats site, it would even be better. Besides, when you play live, you have no access to stats, only notes that you've taken and that's how it should be online
 
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Sat Apr 21, 2012, 07:25 AM
(#20)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
I'm angry. REALLY bloody angry. I just spent an hour putting together a response here only to find I'd been logged out and lost everything I'd typed when I tried to post. I won't be attempting a re-post. Life's too short.

Who the hell introduced this marvellous innovation ???
Probably too late but if you right click on the page and click back (to where you were typing) it will bring you back to your message you typed.

An excellent article here:

http://www.pokernews.com/muck/no-data-for-you.htm

My own thoughts are that data mining will happen whether we like it or not. It's illegal but you can buy and sell hand fish lists on the net. Sites will sell you millions of hand histories so you can chase the fish up. They are no different to this site which just does it above board. By banning these sites it will just drive things underground and poker will become more shady.
 

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