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$11 NL MTT (sunday storm aniv), top two vs river shove

$11 NL MTT (sunday storm aniv), top two vs river shove - Fri Apr 20, 2012, 05:54 PM
limabravo81's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 2
Hello there fellow pso members,

I have this problem with connected broadways like this and somehow i always seem to get into trouble with them so descided to pick one where i think i could possible improve/alter some things so would like to ask a couple of questions about this hand, so i'll first post the hand history as we go trough the preflop/flop/turn/river and take you through my (probably flawed) logic.Any feedback would be appreciated, as well i am here to learn.

This hand in the 10th (or so) hand in the sunday storm aniversary, i have no info on any of the vilains (well just that no-one got out of line the first 10 hands that i could see). So here we go with the preflop action):

PokerStars Hand #78912668055: Tournament #568010003, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (20/40) - 2012/04/15 19:41:21 CET [2012/04/15 13:41:21 ET]
Table '568010003 10315' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Mr X(5910 in chips)
Seat 2: Mr Y (6060 in chips)
Seat 3: HERO (4550 in chips)
Seat 4: VILAIN (3590 in chips)
Seat 5: Dude1 (5210 in chips)
Seat 6: DUde2 (4970 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: Dude3(4840 in chips)
Seat 8: dude4 (4900 in chips)
Seat 9: dude5 (4970 in chips) is sitting out
folkesson1: posts small blind 20
LcF[md]: posts big blind 40
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to limabravo81 [Qs Kd]
DUde2: folds
DUde3: folds
DUde4: calls 40
Dude5: folds
MrX: calls 40
MrY: folds
Hero: raises 80 to 120
VILAIN: calls 100
Dude1: folds
Dude4: calls 80
MrX: calls 80

As you can see i got AK offsuit on the button, we have 2 limpers, then its my turn. Since i believe AQ and AK would probably raise, i think if i hit my Q/K i will be good quite often so descide this is a nice spot to raise and see how the table reacts. I get the SB to call and so do the 2 limpers.

Question 1) is this raise here a good idea, i think it is tough after looking at it again i think me raise should have been a bit bigger probably about 180.Is this correct or would you take a different line?

Ok now for the flop

*** FLOP *** [8d 4h Qc]
VILAIN: checks
Dude4: bets 40
MrX: calls 40
HERO: calls 40
VILAIN: calls 40

I hit my q and think i'm probably good here, tough after a minbet and a call i descide to not go wild with Top pair second kicker as its still early and i have no idea how the players are and i don't want to big a pot yet this early. Tough maybe i should have raised here as i do think i will most of the time be good here.
SO question 2) would you have raised here?

Now the turn

*** TURN *** [8d 4h Qc] [Kc]
VILAIN: checks
Dude4: bets 40
MRX: calls 40
HERO: raises 320 to 360
VILAIN: calls 360
Dude4: folds
MrX: folds

Bingo, top 2 pair, now after a minbet/call i descide to raise and build some pot. i get one caller. so to the river.

*** RIVER *** [8d 4h Qc Kc] [3s]
VILAIN: bets 3070 and is all-in

Ok so he river is pretty much a total brick. the 3 completes no straigh/flushdraws so i should still be good. But then the guy that has been check/calling the entire way shoves his entire stack into the middle. just like that . So now the question i would mainly like to see awnsered. For about 75/80% of my stack, should i all this this early in the MTT?

I keep hearing, don't go broke early unless you have the nuts, well this may not be the nuts, but i'm only beat if he has a set here, and his line doesn't really make sense for a set in my mind.

So the main question, Would you call this, and if yes/no on this board and as played, what would be the minimum here to call with?

Sorry for the long text, hope all is clear, thanks in advance for any tips/advice,


*edited out names as its not interestig imho :p and some typo's i appologizefor all the spelling errors still there*

Last edited by limabravo81; Fri Apr 20, 2012 at 06:04 PM.. Reason: Edited out some typo's
Fri Apr 20, 2012, 10:38 PM
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
Hi limabravo81!

These types of hands are always going to put me in sticky situations when I'm out of position. Due to this, normally I'm going to muck them preflop if I'm OOP early in a tourney, however, if I'm in position, then I'm most likely playing them (depending on what the others at the table do).

Preflop, if I'm going to play the hand, I'm going to make a std raise, which for me is to 3BB+1BB for each limper. Since there are two limpers, I'll raise to 200. Smaller raises price in too many marginal hands and I'd rather thin the field some, as KQ will play better against less opps.

The flop gives me top pair/2nd kicker. There's a min bet and a call in front of me and with top pair, I'm going to raise here for three reasons. It will be a value bet, but since there are possible straight draws out there (combos of 9, 10, J), I also want to price out the draws. The other reason is to find out where I'm at in the hand. Someone calling a raise preflop and on the flop will have hit the board very hard (or maybe have a draw), so I can lower my bets on later streets if this is the case.
I'm going to raise 1/2 pot. If they fold, I take down the pot and add the chips to my stack without a fight, if any of the opps call, it helps to define their hand (Qx, str8 draw, set, maybe 8x).

The turn gives me top two pair. If someone calls both raises, then I've got a decision to make. If I put the opp on a draw, then I'd make the same 1/2 pot bet to price them out. If I put them on a set, then I'll call a small bet from them or if they check (which could easily happen after two raises), I'll check behind for pot control.

With the larger bets earlier in the hand, it will make the river play much easier. The opp won't have many chips left, so with the river being a brick (to anything other than 33), it's an easy call. The opp could have a set and beat me, but there are also a number of hands that the opp could have that I beat with top 2 pair (Qx for one or two pair, busted draws, Kx for one or two pair, 34s). With many more hands that I beat than I'm behind, with this many chips in the pot, I'm calling.

The way it played out, with the river being a shove for pot, a read on the opp would be key for me. I could call or fold here and it'll depend on who the opp is and how they've been playing. The one thing that I'd wonder about is if I had a note that the opp slowplays a flopped set. One thing that I've seen while playing online is that the players that do slowplay sets, will do it repeatedly and if I see someone do that, I will make a note on the opp about it. If I had a note on this opp that they would slowplay sets... then I'd be more opt to fold on the river.

This is really a good tough situation that the more you play, both online and live, you'll see something like this happen over and over.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


6 Time Bracelet Winner

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 11:28 AM
asterizk's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 1
In my humble, unprofessional opinion your opponent had a set from the very beginning: 88 or most probably 44 for many players put a raise with 88. The way he played his hand after the flop witnessed about a week draw but once again he probably was sanbagging his set, for with two pairs (especially bottom ones) he would have been more active protecting his hand by raising. So when it came to the final bet he put all in hoping you will take his hand as a busted staight and then a bluff. As for calling his all in bet, that is a really difficult decision and notwithstanding the above analysis i personally would rather call.

Best regards,


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