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2nl 6max T9s vs SB shove

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2nl 6max T9s vs SB shove - Sun Apr 22, 2012, 01:15 PM
(#1)
pokerspants's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 42
a couple of hands before we were involved in a hand with our vilain heres the clifs

vilain limps the BTN we raise 5x AKs in the SB vilain calls
flop is Q69 we open .10 into .22 vilain min raies and we call
the turn is a blank and we check through
river is Ah we check allowing our vilain to take another stab to which he does .10 we min raise trying to look week and the vilain snap calls and shows K6d for FOURTH pair

then we get to here

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

how wide is our vilains range here?
i couldnt narrow it down to a specific range but i thought it was wide and though our hand isnt great it can hit alot

what are your thoughts here?
 
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Sun Apr 22, 2012, 01:31 PM
(#2)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
My first thought is to instantly fold.

9T suited is barely better than a flip against a random 2 card range.

It is about even against a 78% range.

However loose and random the opponent is - I want a much better starting hand to get involved and can easily get away here cheaply.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 01:35 PM..
 
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Sun Apr 22, 2012, 01:49 PM
(#3)
etipac's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 116
Just fold it.. and hope he keeps doing it till you have a hand and then snap call :-)
 
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Sun Apr 22, 2012, 01:55 PM
(#4)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerspants View Post
a couple of hands before we were involved in a hand with our vilain heres the clifs

vilain limps the BTN we raise 5x AKs in the SB vilain calls
flop is Q69 we open .10 into .22 vilain min raies and we call
the turn is a blank and we check through
river is Ah we check allowing our vilain to take another stab to which he does .10 we min raise trying to look week and the vilain snap calls and shows K6d for FOURTH pair

how wide is our vilains range here?
i couldnt narrow it down to a specific range but i thought it was wide and though our hand isnt great it can hit alot

what are your thoughts here?
My second thoughts -

9Ts - or any suited/connected cards with good potential are only 'high card' hands preflop - so here we have T-high (5th kicker) unless we improve to straight/flush draws, medium strong pairs or better.

These hands play well post-flop if we can see a cheap flop, and once we have hit a strong draw or a strong made hand, otherwise they are folding material. Calling all-ins (even short stacks) preflop is not really on - and we have an opponent willing to play single high-card hands - like K6 - which 9Ts will be behind. (Any ace, any king, any queen - any jack any pair etc)

I would not rely on the demonstrated fishiness of any opponent to call off this number of BBs with a speculative starting hand.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 01:58 PM..
 
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Sun Apr 22, 2012, 02:40 PM
(#5)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
If he was raising all-in every single hand and you could reasonably put him on a 75%+ opening range you could call if you really wanted to. Still it would basically be a coin flip. I really don't see any reason to get involved in a 45BB coinflip when you could simply fold and wait a hand or two then call him down with something better.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...c?sitId=165903
 
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Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:38 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hi Pokerpants.

Think of the Gap concept...

You are contemplating a CALL of an all in.

You have the Villain on a 75%+ range to shove.

Even if he is on a 100% range to shove here, half the time he will wake up with a hand in the top half of that range, and half the time he will wake up with a hand in the bottom half of that range, right?

So if you want to have +eV at least HALF the time to call a shove, you really want to hold a hand which will have positive equity versus a 50% range (if he will shove 100%...for a 75% range you'd want to be +eV vs at least a 37.5% range).

Per pokerstove, this is the equity of Tc9c vs a 50% range:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,032,519,312 games 0.047 secs 21,968,496,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.077% 42.54% 01.54% 439194984 15904335.00 { Tc9c }
Hand 1: 55.923% 54.38% 01.54% 561515658 15904335.00 { 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o }

You are calling 87c for a chance to win 91c, and you are getting about 1.05 to 1 to call. This means you need around 48.8% equity to break even on a call.

Why risk a loss of 89c to "protect" a 2c BB in this spot with a hand having minimal high card value like T9s? It really isn;t worth it...

Fold in my opinion.

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Apr 22, 2012, 05:54 PM
(#7)
pokerspants's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 42
thanx guys for all your input it was such a donk call i never realised T9s was such a dog!

i think i need to go over some hands in stove and see some equity
 
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Sun Apr 22, 2012, 06:41 PM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
By the Way:

QTs is about the weakest suited T I'd consider calling on here if he were 100% random in his shove range here. This is QTs vs a 50% range (a totally random shover):

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

4,082,132,736 games 0.000 secs 816,426,547,200 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.117% 47.48% 01.64% 1938249436 66772128.00 { 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o }
Hand 1: 50.883% 49.25% 01.64% 2010339044 66772128.00 { QTs }

And this is how QTs plays versus a 37.5% range (if you think he would shove about 75%):

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

3,041,051,904 games 0.000 secs 608,210,380,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.292% 50.46% 01.83% 1534554268 55687580.00 { 44+, A2s+, K3s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A4o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 1: 47.708% 45.88% 01.83% 1395122476 55687580.00 { QTs }

So versus this slightly TIGHTER shove range of 75%, QJs is about the absolute lightest I'd be willing to call:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

3,041,051,904 games 0.000 secs 608,210,380,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.671% 48.95% 01.73% 1488442900 52498844.00 { 44+, A2s+, K3s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A4o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 1: 49.329% 47.60% 01.73% 1447611316 52498844.00 { QJs }

Realistically though, both QTs and QJs would be "close edge" calls for a 100% random shove range and a 75% shove range respectively, and calling with them would result in quite high variance. They each appear to be small +eV though for their respective spots, so as long as you are willing to accept frequent losses for the chance to make some small profit in the long term, they can be ok.

But those are about the LIGHTEST hands you can call on to be "ok".

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner
 
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Mon Apr 23, 2012, 05:38 AM
(#9)
pokerspants's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 42
thanx alot for the info and might i say you guys @ PSO ROCK!!!!!
 

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