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AK versus button limper

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AK versus button limper - Sat Apr 28, 2012, 06:29 AM
(#1)
SnapperJohn1's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 40
The following is taken from a 6-max Zoom session today - I couldn't get the replayer to work, not sure that the replayer copes with zoom hand histories, so apologies in advance (hand text is at bottom of posting). The problem is one that I encounter in both regular cash and tourneys also, so I thought it worth posting for some advice.

First 3 players fold, button limps in, SB folds. I raise my AKo for value by 3BB (total of 4BB including the big blind). The raise is called by the button. At this point I inclined to think that I could be looking at Ax hands, although I think the range is still pretty wide - interested in any other thoughts at this point on opponent range.

Flop is K54, with two spades, giving me TPTK. I take the lead in the betting and bet 12c into pot of 17c - my thinking being to discourage spade and straight draws. The bet is is called. At this point I am thinking Ax spades - on reflection maybe too big a leap from my earlier assessment - interested on thoughts on whether others would lead out and if so for bet size, and also where others are ranging opponent at this point.

Turn card is 6s, making possible flushes and also some straights. I elect to continue with lead, betting 30c into the pot of 41c. This is called. I convinced that a draw completed and am giving up on the pot at this point.

The river is As and I am now confused as to what opponent's holding is and where I am - TPTK not being strong enough for me to bet again. I elect to check, with plan to fold to a bet. Opponent checks too. Would anyone have represented flush at this point, or is this a clear check/fold?

Appreciate any thoughts folks have.

Thanks in advance,

Snapper


Table 'Hercynia' 6-max
Seat 1: Andrei Gorez ($2.67 in chips)
Seat 2: kirla77 ($2 in chips)
Seat 3: SnapperJohn1 ($2.59 in chips)
Seat 4: BLUE-SMARTY ($2.06 in chips)
Seat 5: cQ^.^Q ($3.86 in chips)
Seat 6: OstapSmart I ($0.60 in chips)
kirla77: posts small blind $0.01
SnapperJohn1: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SnapperJohn1 [Kc Ah]
BLUE-SMARTY: folds
cQ^.^Q: folds
OstapSmart I: folds
Andrei Gorez: calls $0.02
kirla77: folds
SnapperJohn1: raises $0.06 to $0.08
Andrei Gorez: calls $0.06
*** FLOP *** [Ks 5s 4d]
SnapperJohn1: bets $0.12
Andrei Gorez: calls $0.12
*** TURN *** [Ks 5s 4d] [6s]
SnapperJohn1: bets $0.30
Andrei Gorez: calls $0.30
*** RIVER *** [Ks 5s 4d 6s] [As]
SnapperJohn1: checks
Andrei Gorez: checks
 
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Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:28 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
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***moved to HA since the member has a ? about the hand JWK24***


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Sun Apr 29, 2012, 06:10 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hi SnapperJohn1!

I am going to parse your comments into quotes, and address each separately, ok?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SnapperJohn1 View Post
The following is taken from a 6-max Zoom session today - I couldn't get the replayer to work, not sure that the replayer copes with zoom hand histories, so apologies in advance (hand text is at bottom of posting). The problem is one that I encounter in both regular cash and tourneys also, so I thought it worth posting for some advice.
In Zoom you are working on minimal info about the opponent(s). Still, AKo is usually a good enough hand to raise up versus a BTN limper when you are in the BB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnapperJohn1 View Post
First 3 players fold, button limps in, SB folds. I raise my AKo for value by 3BB (total of 4BB including the big blind). The raise is called by the button. At this point I inclined to think that I could be looking at Ax hands, although I think the range is still pretty wide - interested in any other thoughts at this point on opponent range.
To be honest, I think I'd prefer to raise a bit more than standard with my hand OOP here. This way if I flop TPTK, and the opp folds to my C Bet, I am getting a little more from my hand.

Pre flop may be my only chance to get value from the "best hand", so I think I'd have preferred to make it more along the line of 10c to 12c to go.

If the limper folds, so be it. If I am going to play oop versus a limper who MIGHT call somewhat widely to use his positional advantage, I want him to pay when I have a solid group 2 hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnapperJohn1 View Post
Flop is K54, with two spades, giving me TPTK. I take the lead in the betting and bet 12c into pot of 17c - my thinking being to discourage spade and straight draws. The bet is is called. At this point I am thinking Ax spades - on reflection maybe too big a leap from my earlier assessment - interested on thoughts on whether others would lead out and if so for bet size, and also where others are ranging opponent at this point.
After raising and flopping top/top, I am certainly leading out here.

The opp might be calling on WIDE range, and we just do not know really how wide. A2/A3 (especially spades) is possible, as is 78/23 (23 might be a tad weak). 2 random Spades, especially T+ spades could be here. Weaker Ks are certainly in the range, as are a wide variety of pp less than a K. "Monster" hands like AA/KK/55/44 are also marginally possible.

The big thing we have to recognize about our ranging thoughts here is that we really lack the info to dismiss certain hands. We can downgrade some hands for the action pattern (like 23/AA/KK) but we really do not have the sort of info that allows us to know for sure if this opp is uber passive to the point he'd limp/call AA/KK, or uber loose and limp/call with 23 on the BTN.

This lack of info is one of the reasons I'd tend to make my pre flop raise over the limp LARGER: that tends to give more definition of my hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnapperJohn1 View Post
Turn card is 6s, making possible flushes and also some straights. I elect to continue with lead, betting 30c into the pot of 41c. This is called. I convinced that a draw completed and am giving up on the pot at this point.
Betting out is fine if you have zero intent to call ANY raise. Your sizing is pretty nice too, as that makes it harder to bluff raise than had you tried to bet a bit less than you did in hopes of "saving" some $.

If you would consider calling a small raise though, or a small bet, it might be better for you to check back here to control the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnapperJohn1 View Post
The river is As and I am now confused as to what opponent's holding is and where I am - TPTK not being strong enough for me to bet again. I elect to check, with plan to fold to a bet. Opponent checks too. Would anyone have represented flush at this point, or is this a clear check/fold?
You have top 2 pair here, and given the action pattern I think I would be willing to call some amount on he river actually. I'd probably call up to around half pot.

I too check the river though, as there is probably little chance that I am getting called by less than top 2 if I were to bet again. I would consider calling up to around half pot though because there ARE some lesser hands which might consider bluffing the 4th spade (at least some of the time).

Hope it helps!

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Sun Apr 29, 2012 at 06:12 PM..
 
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Mon Apr 30, 2012, 02:29 PM
(#4)
SnapperJohn1's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 40
JDean,

Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate the thought put into the analysis. As you point out in your reply, I ended up with top 2 not TPTK - I even managed to confuse myself when doing the write up! :-)

Hand reading / ranging is an area I am trying to improve on, as I am making mistakes that I look back at in hands and see as not good plays. I think that Zoom does not help in this respect, as there is no continuity or history - I make notes on players, but there is flow to the game and you might not see same player for a long time. Zoom might be good for note taking, as you need to get all the information e.g. position, betting lines and bet sizing for the occasions that you do see the same players again.

As it turned out in this hand, the opp had pocket 5's and made a set on the flop - so his play made perfect sense when seeing the result. I dont want to get scared of big hands getting there against me, but I do need to try and keep ranges wide until information allows me not to do so. I am not sure whether a larger pre-flop raise would have changed his mind or not, but I guess he was always calling to see the flop and continuing if he hit.

Maybe a little less Zoom and take in some regular ring games when I am actively studying!

Thanks once again.

Snapper
 

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