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Raising pre-flop

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Raising pre-flop - Mon May 21, 2012, 02:33 PM
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NickCanuck's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 1
Playing in a limit game. Raised pre-flop with AA. Some clown started mouthing off that raising preflop in limit games is wrong, that it should only be done in no limit, because I couldn't "protect my bet".

1) WTF is "protecting your bet"?

2) From my POV, with AA, I'm 50% to win the hand. I want to either get in as many $$ preflop, or to scare off people like a BB with 4-8 who could limp in and then hit 5-6-7 on the flop.

Am I right, or is this other guy way more knowledgeable?
 
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Mon May 21, 2012, 02:47 PM
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ketchup143's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickCanuck View Post
Playing in a limit game. Raised pre-flop with AA. Some clown started mouthing off that raising preflop in limit games is wrong, that it should only be done in no limit, because I couldn't "protect my bet".

1) WTF is "protecting your bet"?

2) From my POV, with AA, I'm 50% to win the hand. I want to either get in as many $$ preflop, or to scare off people like a BB with 4-8 who could limp in and then hit 5-6-7 on the flop.

Am I right, or is this other guy way more knowledgeable?
when he said you couldn't protect your bet, he was saying that since u can only raise one bet in limit holdem, u can't chase anyone out of the pot because it's only one more bet that they have to call. u also can't price anyone out, which is betting large enough to get somebody with a flush or straight draw to fold, for instance. However, ur raising the pot for value--u don't necessarily want anyone to fold. I mean, AA is something like a 48% favorite 4 handed (somebody correct me please if i made a mistake) so u obviously don't want the whole table to call. But raising balances out the folds that u want to keep ur hand equitable, and the calls u want specifically for value, if that makes sense. what u said in #2 is dead on.
 
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Mon May 21, 2012, 08:46 PM
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mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
tell that clown to go read a book...lol and i'll take 50% in a four handed pot all day long. and your reasoning for raising is spot on. and ketchup's right the reason you raise is mostly for value yet it will "thin" the field some especially from an earlier position where more people aren't already in the pot.


May the tinfoil protect you. MT
 
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Wed May 23, 2012, 02:20 AM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickCanuck View Post
Playing in a limit game. Raised pre-flop with AA. Some clown started mouthing off that raising preflop in limit games is wrong, that it should only be done in no limit, because I couldn't "protect my bet".

1) WTF is "protecting your bet"?

2) From my POV, with AA, I'm 50% to win the hand. I want to either get in as many $$ preflop, or to scare off people like a BB with 4-8 who could limp in and then hit 5-6-7 on the flop.

Am I right, or is this other guy way more knowledgeable?

Hi Nick.

You are right, the other guy is wrong.

I am sure by "protecting your bet" this loud mouth meant that your raise will garner little respect, and will get called by a lot of people. The greater the number of people, the more often hands like AA that will tend to be over pairs (and stay that way), and more people in the pot means the more often they will get drawn out on. Since you cannot "protect your bet" by configuring your later bet amounts to deny odds to a wide variety of draws, you will tend to lose way more often with AA in FLHE than in NLHE if you raise, because that raise has built a pot that encourages draws to stay.

BUT...

By NOT raising, aren't you just encouraging MORE people to stay in the hand, and INCREASING your chances of being sucked out on? What kind of "protection" is that?

Also...

What the loud mouth does not understand is that if you do not raise, you also cannot WIN MORE from the opponents with weak calling tendencies when they do not hit their outs against you.

Consider...

Let's say you hold AA versus a loose/passive "calling station" type opponent. He holds 78s and calls a raise. You have roughly 76% equity to win the pot, so why would you settle for winning 1 small bet as that big a favorite instead of 2, just because there is a CHANCE he may out flop you or flop a draw he is unwilling to give up?

Let's say the weak opp flops a draw...

Flop comes Kh Td 5h. This is pretty typical of a "good flop" for 87s in a FLHE game where you with the over pair cannot now deny him odds to take the turn because there is 5.5 small bets in the pot.

(Note: you cannot deny him odds to draw at his flush because he can elect to check/call and will get at least 6.5 to 1 to draw, because he'd only have to call a single small bet by you for a chance to win 6.5 small bets. He "needs" roughly 4.2 to 1 or so pot odds to break even on the roughly 17% chance he has to hit his flush on the turn).

At this point your equity has fallen to about 60% if the villain is going to stay the whole way. Are you going to slow down betting simply because the LP station is now going to win about 40% of the time he chases to the river? If so, why? To "protect your hand"?????

...Or would you much RATHER he calls as an under dog?

According to the logic of your loud mouthed opponent, you should try to limit your losses by not betting or raising, because this guy will never fold that draw and will get there the max amount of the time. Of course you also limit the amount you WIN when he does not get there.

The guy who will call 2 bets cold with 87s or something only has about a 5.5% chance of out flopping you. While a loose caller has a pretty FAT chance to see enough equity to continue as a DOG in the hand with pot odds, he only has that equity as a result of his initial loose call. If he looks at overall implied odds of starting the hand in the first place, he is making a BIG -eV play to call 2 bets cold with 87s vs AA.

That means you should DEFINITELY raise, and keep on betting, to make sure he is paying the maximum price to get there is he wants to chase!

To sum up...


The only "protection" a really strong hand needs is your skill at poker. You need to be able to use information about your opponents' tendencies to call vs bet/raise, to be able to read board texture for potential threats, and to be able to range opponents effectively to determine whether or not you have the correct equity to continue in the hand.

Being drawn out on is not a "poker sin" for you, because that means you will have been ahead. What IS a poker sin is not betting or raising when there is a strong chance you are ahead, because that means when you are NOT drawn out upon, you will be winning far LESS.

...and you need the extra money you extract in limit to off-set the greater frequency with which suck outs will tend to occur.

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Wed May 23, 2012 at 02:29 AM..
 

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