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something to confuse you!

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something to confuse you! - Mon May 28, 2012, 09:25 AM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
hi guys i have noticed we have had no insane posts of late so with that in mind thought i would post an insane post,for you all to debate and get your theories in.

ok i will keep it short and when have some posts,will get into a good debate hopefully on this.

Im not sure,what two hole cards as the most outs?

So them two cards surely should be the best starting hand in poker?

More outs,more of a favourite?
 
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Mon May 28, 2012, 10:40 AM
(#2)
94Tofer's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 217
AA has the most outs, anything that doesnt give the opponent 2 pair or better is an "out" for AA
 
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Mon May 28, 2012, 11:11 AM
(#3)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
I can not resist no longer ,I need to answer this one, in my eyes its not AA there only good pref and we all know how often they get busted i'm talking from a cash game point of view a hand like JT,s yes very speculative, but every hand it hits gives the nut straight or the nut straight flush surely that's the best hand in poker. AA bores me you either win a BB or u 4bet someone into a fold either way never much to be made with them or the other factor someone calls your raise and hits 2 pair of better a set, and u feel so committed with that pocket pair, JT,s is a easy hand to get away from but can also earn you a big pot and works well in multi way pots how do you feel about your pocket aces with 3 callers behind you?
 
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Mon May 28, 2012, 12:30 PM
(#4)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPest72 View Post
I can not resist no longer ,I need to answer this one, in my eyes its not AA there only good pref and we all know how often they get busted i'm talking from a cash game point of view a hand like JT,s yes very speculative, but every hand it hits gives the nut straight or the nut straight flush surely that's the best hand in poker. AA bores me you either win a BB or u 4bet someone into a fold either way never much to be made with them or the other factor someone calls your raise and hits 2 pair of better a set, and u feel so committed with that pocket pair, JT,s is a easy hand to get away from but can also earn you a big pot and works well in multi way pots how do you feel about your pocket aces with 3 callers behind you?
LOL


May the tinfoil protect you. MT
 
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Mon May 28, 2012, 02:20 PM
(#5)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
hi guys i have noticed we have had no insane posts of late so with that in mind thought i would post an insane post,for you all to debate and get your theories in.

ok i will keep it short and when have some posts,will get into a good debate hopefully on this.

Im not sure,what two hole cards as the most outs?

So them two cards surely should be the best starting hand in poker?

More outs,more of a favourite?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPest72 View Post
I can not resist no longer ,I need to answer this one, in my eyes its not AA there only good pref and we all know how often they get busted i'm talking from a cash game point of view a hand like JT,s yes very speculative, but every hand it hits gives the nut straight or the nut straight flush surely that's the best hand in poker. AA bores me you either win a BB or u 4bet someone into a fold either way never much to be made with them or the other factor someone calls your raise and hits 2 pair of better a set, and u feel so committed with that pocket pair, JT,s is a easy hand to get away from but can also earn you a big pot and works well in multi way pots how do you feel about your pocket aces with 3 callers behind you?

OMFG


Please,ANYONE,download a tracking software program (such as PT3 or HEM) either as a purchase or a free trial,or just download your HH's and pore through them meticulously and try to find a hand,OVER A LARGE SAMPLE,that you win a higher % of the time with than AA and,more importantly,you win more chips/money with than AA.

If you can't prove that you win more with AA then I'll make 2 suggestions...

1: You don't have the first clue how to play AA.

2: You can continue to blame the software,the cards,the lunar cycles,the CIA,Jamie Gold,The Loch Ness Monster or whatever else floats your boat but so long as you do you will continue to punt reams of value with your Aces.


In answer to your query holdem---any two suited cards that can be completed to a straight both up and down would have the most outs pre-flop as far as how you're framing this question.

But how many of them are "true" outs is the question you start running into with hands like that. You may complete a straight or a flush only to lose to a higher one. The only way to ensure not being beaten by a higher straight or flush is,of course,to have an ace at the top of your hand. But that would remove some of your "outs",as you're framing this,because a hand with an ace in it is of course capped on it's potential for a straight,at least in using BOTH cards (AK can never play both to a wheel and A2 or the like can never play both to Broadway...).


(For the record my favorite TWO hands are AK spades (sexiest looking hand in poker IMO---used to get in bad spots by not being able to let it go when necessary but I'm working on that...) and any 109 suited (for some reason I seem to have more good fortune with this hand than I do with J10---and my numbers back me up on this,it is a THIN margin though---but I just "feel" better with 109 in my hand...).

Oh,and of course,the Pokerstars Monkey Nuts---94o.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Mon May 28, 2012 at 02:31 PM..
 
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Mon May 28, 2012, 03:37 PM
(#6)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post

If you can't prove that you win more with AA then I'll make 2 suggestions...
Hey Mox, as I was reading this and having a good laugh, when all of a sudden while playing my 25NL, this happens



So, I say, TT is much better than AA.....................LOL
 
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Mon May 28, 2012, 04:23 PM
(#7)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
gotta love it when a plan comes together
nice pot trapper


May the tinfoil protect you. MT
 
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Tue May 29, 2012, 02:16 AM
(#8)
Feskprins's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPest72 View Post
I can not resist no longer ,I need to answer this one, in my eyes its not AA there only good pref and we all know how often they get busted i'm talking from a cash game point of view a hand like JT,s yes very speculative, but every hand it hits gives the nut straight or the nut straight flush surely that's the best hand in poker. AA bores me you either win a BB or u 4bet someone into a fold either way never much to be made with them or the other factor someone calls your raise and hits 2 pair of better a set, and u feel so committed with that pocket pair, JT,s is a easy hand to get away from but can also earn you a big pot and works well in multi way pots how do you feel about your pocket aces with 3 callers behind you?
Meet me at the 200NL tables. Now.

Kind regards,
Your personal IRS

....
 
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Tue May 29, 2012, 07:57 AM
(#9)
joker41673's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
hi guys i have noticed we have had no insane posts of late so with that in mind thought i would post an insane post,for you all to debate and get your theories in.

ok i will keep it short and when have some posts,will get into a good debate hopefully on this.

Im not sure,what two hole cards has the most outs?

So them two cards surely should be the best starting hand in poker?

More outs,more of a favourite?
The answer is none of them!!!

Until the flop comes your hole cards have no outs!!

 
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Tue May 29, 2012, 06:33 PM
(#10)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPest72 View Post
I can not resist no longer ,I need to answer this one, in my eyes its not AA there only good pref and we all know how often they get busted i'm talking from a cash game point of view a hand like JT,s yes very speculative, but every hand it hits gives the nut straight or the nut straight flush surely that's the best hand in poker. AA bores me you either win a BB or u 4bet someone into a fold either way never much to be made with them or the other factor someone calls your raise and hits 2 pair of better a set, and u feel so committed with that pocket pair, JT,s is a easy hand to get away from but can also earn you a big pot and works well in multi way pots how do you feel about your pocket aces with 3 callers behind you?
When are you taking this act on the stage i could do with a good laugh.


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue May 29, 2012, 10:49 PM
(#11)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Thanks for the responses,some interesting points.

This is not a topic on aa, the irelavance of aa been a mathmatical percentage is not the issue, the number of outs is.

How do we truly know or will ever know that in any given long time situation,probably well above life expectancy that other hands, could be 79 suited or 72 off suit dont actually win as equal to there conterpart aces?

Nothing in the laws of randomness says that 72 can not win 5 times in a row for example,
this is an unlikely outcome but no one who understands variance can and should argue with that point!

So why i ask myself is Aces more likely to hit the board more than say 72. The fact is they have the same likely hood of hitting in my version of poker philosophy.
With the exception that aces doesnt nesacarily have to hit to win.

Increased outs in any other game or betting type structure,surely the one with the most should be favourite to win, however in poker many will argue the case that this is not so,so why i ask?

Or is it the fact that over a huge period of time that actually atc will in fact balance the win/ loose factor making any 2 cards as equal.

no outs,jokers responce,interesting point m8t,i think i see what you are saying there.
Moxie very good again,and favourite hands not dissimilar from mine,so why do we have favourite hands,surely everones favourite should be aces.

Pokerpest72, my bro, interesting there bro,Jack Ten suited,a reasonable hand in most situations as long as played in the correct manor,i.e posistion,
i will happily call a raise with jt's even if i think the opp as aces as long as i have posistion and its not an all in call.

???? what came first,limit or no limit poker does anyone know?

and on that question i will leave the rest of my points and views untill it has been answered,my feeling is that the game structure was desinged to see flops on a pot limit/limit basis,and nl changed the game into more of a fast pace gamblers game,producing more stack offs.
 
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Wed May 30, 2012, 07:46 AM
(#12)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
When are you taking this act on the stage i could do with a good laugh.

Well not really sure what that means b ? I thought the Q was about what has the most outs and I am truly cursed with aces and kings I guess its because I don't know how to play them, i'm going have to stop getting someone all in pref with them only for them to turn over pocket 3,s and I know i'm gonna get sucked out on, this isn,t a random once in a while thing i,m always losing with AA and KK I honestly do better with AQ than I do with aces pt4 tells me so, infact I just noticed i've won more off AQo than AK suited lol. it would be +EV for me to start mucking aa and kk hehe.

And who is blaming software ? not me I just run like dung and could not care less I love playing poker, don't care how bad I am at it I just love to play.

Come play at 200nl LMFAO come play at 1/2c and let me lol when some monkey with a 90% vpip busts your aces with 48s.

I have one for u bro, is poker still a game? How can anyone that's playing poker so serious be playing a game, they are turning it into a job and all the fun is being replaced with stats and stress.
I,ve stopped using my HUD on stars and now it feels fun again, like poker was meant to be.
 
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Wed May 30, 2012, 07:53 AM
(#13)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
like you know pokerpest,i never used a hud of any description,i make no player notes of any description and just go with the situation.

Is poker still a game?,hmm interesting ?,for many yes it is,and for many its work, but me i like just the fun,cant beat taking down a pot with 72 then rubbin in it lol,
 
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Wed May 30, 2012, 08:30 AM
(#14)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
lol bro, I love the fact everyone disses you, makes fun of us, want to see how many leaks I have its terrible http://www.freeimagehosting.net/kmmbe only 11k in hands had to reinstall, I love the fact they all assume we r monkeys lol, makes me laugh.
 
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Wed May 30, 2012, 08:40 AM
(#15)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
lol bro they dont talk to me like that anymore it been ok on ere,its a debate bro so all opinions count as long as they are on the subject material,so dont take anything to heart.
 
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Wed May 30, 2012, 08:59 AM
(#16)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
I,m not taking things to heart i'm buzzing off them, I am still sticking to JT,s HEHE like mox said 2 suited connectors have the most outs but only JT,s hits the nuts straight when completed, so its my fav hand as far as outs go and always good for a semi bluff cbet after the flop has come.

I nearly hit a royal yesterday but I got that excited I barrelled twice and the op folded on the turn I had TJQK spades on the flop, I had a tingle in my pants hehe.

Last edited by PokerPest72; Wed May 30, 2012 at 09:15 AM.. Reason: extra
 
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Wed May 30, 2012, 10:48 AM
(#17)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
???? what came first,limit or no limit poker does anyone know?
No limit came first. The early hold'em games were NL, and the fish got broke really quickly and the games dried up. Then the advent of limit hold'em came into being and revitalized the game, now the fish still couldn't win long term but they couldn't get broke really quickly either and when they ran good could book a win... their money lasted a lot longer and there was more of an illusion that it was a luck game to them and for quite a while all the cash games in Vegas etc were limit HE games (when I moved to Vegas the only place to play NLHE was in a tournament, all the cash games were limit). That changed when Moneymaker won the main event and everyone saw it on TV. A big new influx of players came into the casinos wanting to play the game, but they wanted to play the game they saw on TV, no limit hold'em, so the game revitalized. This time it was done with the cap game concept. So a bad player could still lose 10K in a 5-10 NL game, but they couldn't do it all on one hand any more, now they could only do it in 1K increments, and the didn't get broke super quickly and the game thrived again. This is in the US anyway. In Europe I'm not sure how much limit there is or ever was, there used to be a lot of pot limit HE I understand, but I'm not as familiar with the history there.

Regarding your premise that the game plays best as limit or pot limit, I have heard some good players say that they felt the most interesting form of hold'em poker would mix all three like thiis: Limit before the flop (and on the flop?), pot limit on the turn, and no limit on the river. No more 5B preflop all in wars in cash games, people would have to actually play post flop poker.


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Wed May 30, 2012, 10:56 AM
(#18)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
i will happily call a raise with jt's even if i think the opp as aces as long as i have posistion and its not an all in call.
+1... If I knew my opponent had aces, and the money behind was deep enough, I would happily call with any 2 cards and see a flop.


Head Live Trainer
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Wed May 30, 2012, 01:50 PM
(#19)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
thank you for the history Dave,myself and i bet a lot of people did not know that. I suppose it comes down to some hard reading and study to know that type of question.

A concept of different limits i,e post flop,flop,turn and river very very interesting similar to Pokerstars the big game,televised avent.

I like the idea of that,it would create not just champs but masters similar to chess as a lot lot more skills would be needed.
And i might add you would have to be one cool cookie when playing live.The tells would tell.

Ok so nl came first,hmm will have to rethink and reread all i have posted then add further thoughts,

this post might not mean much too many,but how many of you have deep thoughts on poker?
trying to understand more and more and just looking for that ultimate edge?
 
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Wed May 30, 2012, 08:50 PM
(#20)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post

So why i ask myself is Aces more likely to hit the board more than say 72. The fact is they have the same likely hood of hitting in my version of poker philosophy.
With the exception that aces doesnt nesacarily have to hit to win.

.
AA is less likely to "hit the board" Than 7-2 But that said (2 hits compared to 6 hits) But if you hit your 7 then you are still behind the player with AA in his hand.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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