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All-in for less than a Minimum Raise?

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All-in for less than a Minimum Raise? - Mon May 28, 2012, 05:27 PM
(#1)
Jcrondps's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 147
Hello,

I was playing with some friends the other day and we encountered the following scenario:

8 players
Blinds 500/1000

UTG folds, UTG+1 raises all-in to $1400

In this scenario can the players behind UTG+1 raise the blind or are they required to flat the $1400 because the raise was less than minimum?

Thanks in advance
 
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Mon May 28, 2012, 05:35 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,862
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Hi Jcrondps!

The players behind can only flat, as the raise is not a legal raise (at least the amount of the previous bet). The blind is 1k, so any raise less than to 2k cannot be re-raised.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Mon May 28, 2012, 05:47 PM
(#3)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi Jcrondps!

The players behind can only flat, as the raise is not a legal raise (at least the amount of the previous bet). The blind is 1k, so any raise less than to 2k cannot be re-raised.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)
I think you're wrong there John but it's different rules for different games. There is no worldwide rule book that everyone uses.

If the players coming in behind the all in player have not acted then they can raise to whatever amount they see fit as long as it's double the Big Blind. If they have say limped before the player went all in then they can only call the extra 400 chips and cannot re-raise.

Even online this is a worthwhile scenario to look out for a you can exploit it in certain situations.

Say a ultra short stack has only 2.1 BB's in their stack and you know they are going all in regardless. It's fine to limp, let him push and then you can re-raise when the action gets back to you. The same could not happen if he only had 1.9BB's in his stack.
 
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Mon May 28, 2012, 05:49 PM
(#4)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
To add, even if they are in the blinds they have not acted and can also raise.
 
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Mon May 28, 2012, 07:48 PM
(#5)
Jcrondps's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 147
In this scenario, I ended up saying that the players behind could only flat. However, I've read different rules on the matter but all deal with a raiser in front rather than a blind in front.

In the case of the raiser in front:

Person raises to 3k and gets shoved on to 3300. The people after the person who is all-in can raise. However, if they all flat, the original raiser can only call because there has not been a valid raise since his raise (he can't raise himself).

Thanks for both responses. I think Oval is right in the sense that there is no universal rule and his explanation seems to fit with other things I've read despite the fact that nothing I've read deals specifically with the blinds.

I'm going to watch for a similar scenario online to see how the PokerStars client deals with it. Maybe I can put myself in this situation in a play money game.

I'll post here when I find out for sure.

Thanks again
 
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Mon May 28, 2012, 10:06 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi,

Yes, they can raise. Every active player is entitled to the right to raise at least once. Once they've had that opportunity, the betting must be reopened via a legal raise for them to be able to raise again (what John said). In this case the players who haven't acted on their hands yet can still raise as they've yet had an opportunity to do so. IF someone had limped in for 1K, then the short stack shoved, when the action came back to the limper THEY could not raise, as the shove is not enough to reopen the betting and they already had an opportunity to raise.

Hope this helps.

Dave


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Mon May 28, 2012, 10:13 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcrondps View Post
I think Oval is right in the sense that there is no universal rule
Yes, there is.

Every player is entitled to take an aggressive action (bet/raise) when it's their initial turn. Once they've had this opportunity, they may not do so again unless the betting is "reopened" to them by another aggressive action (a legal sized raise).

You're correct about the scenario where someone raises to 3K, and the next player shoves for 3.3K, and a couple people call. The original raiser can not raise again because he already had is opportunity to take an aggressive action (which he did, raising to 3K). 300 more chips is not enough to constitute a legal raise and reopen the action. Since everyone else called 3.3K back to him, essentially HE was the last aggressor and you are not allowed to raise yourself, so he can not raise again.


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Mon May 28, 2012, 10:26 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
I think you're wrong there John.

If the players coming in behind the all in player have not acted then they can raise to whatever amount they see fit as long as it's double the Big Blind. If they have say limped before the player went all in then they can only call the extra 400 chips and cannot re-raise.
Hi Ovalman!

You're right. The players that haven't acted yet do get 1 chance to make a play. Sorry for the mistake.

John (JWK24)


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