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2 NL 6 Max River overplayed?

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2 NL 6 Max River overplayed? - Sat Jun 09, 2012, 11:46 AM
(#1)
TheAwesomeNW's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 474
Hi guys, I ran into 2 similar spots today, really tough decision because opponents were fish. Tilted me for some time.

My table image was tight and semi-nitty, picking on 1 or 2 fish only.


Hand #1
Villain: 46/1 after 200 hands
Sometimes might go showdown with 2nd or 3rd pair. Usually at flop is fit or fold. I won a $1.50 against him initially, but this hand was like damn...



I don't put him on KQ because he would have played it differently. His large river bet just screams a King.

Qn: Is flatting his bet or raising better? There're arguments that if I raise, it'll only make trip Kings or full house call. But against this villain I reckon he'll stack off with a King on hand, thus raising.


Hand #2
Villain: 51/2 after 150 hands
Once set trap by limping AA, got raised by opponent holding KK. Eventually preflop shove, stacked off opponent.



Again the river shove screams strength

Qn: I felt committed at the end facing his shove because I put in half my chips into the pot already. Was folding a straight an option?


After thoughts:
At this point, I think this could be a huge leak in my game. For both cases, are they considered bad beats? Or is there something wrong with my fundamentals like overplaying, not recognising WAWB situations?

Anyway I posted previously about a hand I overplayed with top pair 2nd kicker and I really learnt about not overplaying top pair. Thanks Dave I saved quite some chips by fixing this leak.
 
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Sat Jun 09, 2012, 04:10 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi TANW,

In the future please only post 1 hand at a time... even though they're similar spots for the sake of discussion we like to keep it clean and easy to follow with 1 thread per hand.

I'll reply to each in kind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAwesomeNW View Post
Hi guys, I ran into 2 similar spots today, really tough decision because opponents were fish. Tilted me for some time.

My table image was tight and semi-nitty, picking on 1 or 2 fish only.


Hand #1
Villain: 46/1 after 200 hands
Sometimes might go showdown with 2nd or 3rd pair. Usually at flop is fit or fold. I won a $1.50 against him initially, but this hand was like damn...



I don't put him on KQ because he would have played it differently. His large river bet just screams a King.

Qn: Is flatting his bet or raising better? There're arguments that if I raise, it'll only make trip Kings or full house call. But against this villain I reckon he'll stack off with a King on hand, thus raising.
I like your play here right up until the river. When an opponent who is fishy in a super-passive way gets aggressive, it's indicative of a legitimate big hand. Now it can be tricky at times in that they often don't fully understand relative hand strength and might think a worse trip K's is a "big hand", but in this spot I don't think that's the case.

On the flop certainly we are betting for value, with the plan to be going for 3 streets and unless we get served notice something else is going on, we are expecting this guy to either fold his misses, or call us down with probably most of his worse 1 pair hands.

He donks into us on the turn when the K pairs. So again, an aggressive action from a super passive guy means he's got it... what's he got? Seems to me like the case king. It's possible he's full already (not sure why you don't think he would take this line with KQ, seems right in line with what a player like this would do with KQ to me), but I think he would try this with worse trip K's as well and I do like raising him for value here. We expect him to call with Kx, and check-call the river with Kx as well, so we want to increase the pot size setting up a large river bet which this opponent will never fold a king to.

On the river when he donks again, this is a problem. I just don't see this opponent type ever playing KJ this way, he is check-calling the river all day long with KJ. Given the read he may even check-call off a shove. But he's not taking another aggressive action, he already tried that on the turn and you raised him. So I would be very wary of this action personally, and just call, rather than raise and risk getting re-popped by a boat. If we still have the best hand that's great, we did get essentially 4 streets in (including the turn raise).

Once you raise and he 3-bets the river, this is a fold all day long tbh. Again not always the case as a default line but here we have reads, and a super-passive station is never ever taking a river line of bet/3b into an aggressor without the nuts or close to it. Not at all surprised to see him show K9 here.

Dave


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Sat Jun 09, 2012, 04:13 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
On the river when he donks again, this is a problem. I just don't see this opponent type ever playing KJ this way, he is check-calling the river all day long with KJ. Given the read he may even check-call off a shove. But he's not taking another aggressive action, he already tried that on the turn and you raised him. So I would be very wary of this action personally, and just call, rather than raise and risk getting re-popped by a boat. If we still have the best hand that's great, we did get essentially 4 streets in (including the turn raise).

Once you raise and he 3-bets the river, this is a fold all day long tbh. Again not always the case as a default line but here we have reads, and a super-passive station is never ever taking a river line of bet/3b into an aggressor without the nuts or close to it. Not at all surprised to see him show K9 here.
One other note about this, besides just calling the river we should also consider raise/folding... bet/folding or raise/folding is good if:

1) We think we will be called by worse more than half the time.
2) We can confidently fold when reraised.

In this particular hand I don't like that line... while #2 holds true for sure vs. this villain type, I don't think his line indicates that he has a worse hand as I'm fairly confident he would check-call all of those given the action sequence here.


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Sat Jun 09, 2012, 04:19 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAwesomeNW View Post
Hand #2
Villain: 51/2 after 150 hands
Once set trap by limping AA, got raised by opponent holding KK. Eventually preflop shove, stacked off opponent.



Again the river shove screams strength

Qn: I felt committed at the end facing his shove because I put in half my chips into the pot already. Was folding a straight an option?
Folding is always an option.

In this case I'm ok with the call. The difference here is there's no way he can think you have a straight, and may well show up with AK or KQ in a spot like this and think it's a monster and you have AA.

I do think you overplayed your hand though, QJo out of position is not a great hand to raise imo, especially vs. a loose passive guy who 1) has shown he can be tricky with premiums and 2) will often facilitate building the pot post flop anyway when we hit our hand and he has something as well. No problem with the post flop play, although the river call of his shove is thin given his passive nature, if he will do this with AK/KQ then we have to call I think.


Quote:
Anyway I posted previously about a hand I overplayed with top pair 2nd kicker and I really learnt about not overplaying top pair. Thanks Dave I saved quite some chips by fixing this leak.
Great.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
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Sun Jun 10, 2012, 10:24 PM
(#5)
TheAwesomeNW's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 474
Ok thanks for the thorough analysis. Will post in different threads the next time!
 

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