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where is the skill

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where is the skill - Tue Jun 12, 2012, 09:20 PM
(#1)
frasierbeams's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 145
sitting in the BB with AA , blinfs are 100/200 . 6 limps my stack 2025 , so I shove everyone folds except greycowboy who calls with J7 offsuit , flop 2J7 , i dont improve , come on is this a skill league or just another freeroll donkfest
 
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Tue Jun 12, 2012, 10:38 PM
(#2)
folkstix's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 55
Saw this re-tweeted by TheLangolier a while back: If you complain about bad players chasing too much or never knowing where they're at in a hand, you need to rethink your approach and game.
 
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Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:20 AM
(#3)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Not sure how accurate my thoughts are so feel free to take with a pinch of salt.

This feels like the 14th time you have posted on this topic. You don't seem to understand a few basic points.

1. There is no skill in pushing all in with AA

2. This is a freeroll

3. You cannot effect how 99% of players in these play.

4. YOU could change your own play.

5. Chess doesn't have so many shoves you could try that.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed Jun 13, 2012, 11:46 AM
(#4)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by frasierbeams View Post
sitting in the BB with AA , blinfs are 100/200 . 6 limps my stack 2025 , so I shove everyone folds except greycowboy who calls with J7 offsuit , flop 2J7 , i dont improve , come on is this a skill league or just another freeroll donkfest
If you post the actual hand we could tell for sure whether the call was potentially good or bad - greycowboy is no slouch in these games and has a good long term record in PSO Skill Leagues.

It looks like the pot after your shove and the 5 limp/folders made the pot 3,225 before the opponent called - if we knew their stack size it would help - but it looks like they have possibly the correct odds to call with almost any 2 cards. If they are last to act into a 2-way pot of 3,225, needing to call about 1,800 (if they have that many chips) into a pot that will be about 5k they are getting close to correct odds.

Plus, they don't know you have AA - will range you wider shoving 10BBs over that many limpers to try to take down the pot preflop if they are passive limp/folders.

Looks like you got the action you craved but lost to a suck-out - that doesn't necessarily mean your opponent played it badly, lacks skill, or is a fish.

Perhaps their read on you was that you were a maniac fish - in which case their cards looked pretty good......

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Wed Jun 13, 2012, 02:27 PM
(#5)
Pentire's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 117
****Constructive intentions, not sarcastic or wanting to get into a slanging match****

You made the only play appropriate at that point (shove with AA)

You should be aware by now that Grey Cowboy calls looser than most (I'm sure even he wouldn't argue).

Did you want the call? Surely "Yes"

You got it and lost (Which will happen about 10% of the time with AA against two unconnected undercards).

Now, why were you only sitting with 10BBs at this middle stage? That is a more important question if you want to want to seriously analyse your play.
 
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Thu Jun 14, 2012, 07:37 AM
(#6)
0HighTimes0's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
Not sure how accurate my thoughts are so feel free to take with a pinch of salt.

This feels like the 14th time you have posted on this topic. You don't seem to understand a few basic points.

1. There is no skill in pushing all in with AA

2. This is a freeroll

3. You cannot effect how 99% of players in these play.

4. YOU could change your own play.

5. Chess doesn't have so many shoves you could try that.

Grade b
Bit Off Topic to do with Poker (Luck) V (Skill) Chess LOL
Well Is there's More<>Same<>Less variables/possible Winning combinations in chess V poker ?
Highest 2 peice's//card's = King & Queen(chess) V (poker) AA
There's very different starting moves/turns / postions ( possible combinations move's in Chess), compared too poker's Starting cards+Flop+Turn+River (Outs/Combinations)!
Very different games but, can chess help with Poker theory/Maths, in Heads Up <V> Tournaments ?
As there's few similarity's between the 2, just thoughts


"I wonder how many possible combinations there is in a game of chess"
1) "The number of legal positions in chess is estimated to be between 10^43 and 10^50, with a game-tree complexity of approximately 10^123. The game-tree complexity of chess was first calculated by Claude Shannon as 10^120, a number known as the Shannon number. Typically an average position has thirty to forty possible moves, but there may be as few as zero (in the case of checkmate or stalemate) or as many as 218."
Source and further information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess


2) "Chess is infinite: There are 400 different positions after each player makes one move apiece. There are 72,084 positions after two moves apiece. There are 9+ million positions after three moves apiece. There are 288+ billion different possible positions after four moves apiece. There are more 40-move games on Level-1 than the number of electrons in our universe. There are more game-trees of Chess than the number of galaxies (100+ billion), and more openings, defences, gambits, etc. than the number of quarks in our universe! --Chesmayne"
Source and further information:
http://www.chess-poster.com/.../did_you_know.htm

"Chess opening theory table
Development


Chess openings are studied in great depth by serious players. "Novelties", or new, previously unexplored variations are often discovered and played by professional players. These new lines can refute lines that were previously thought to be sound. The games that represent this discovery process are represented in these ever-changing and expanding tables. With the advent of computer databases, even the most casual player can explore an opening line deeply, looking for novelties to spring on their opponents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_opening_theory_table "

"First-move advantage in chess
Winning percentages

n 1946, W.F. Streeter examined the results of 5,598 games played in 45 international chess tournaments between 1851 and 1932.[2] Streeter found that overall White scored 53.4% (W: 38.12; D: 30.56; L: 31.31).[3] White scored 52.55% in 1851–78 (W:45.52; D: 14.07; L: 40.41), 52.77% in 1881–1914 (W: 36.89; D: 31.76; L: 31.35), and 55.47% in 1919–32 (W: 36.98; D: 36.98; L: 26.04).[2] Streeter concluded, "It thus appears that it is becoming increasingly difficult to win with Black, but somewhat easier to draw."[2][4]

Two decades later, statistician Arthur M. Stevens concluded in The Blue Book of Charts to Winning Chess, based on a survey of 56,972 master games that he completed in 1967, that White scores 59.1%.[5] However, Stevens assembled his games from those that had been published in chess magazines, rather than complete collections of all the games played in particular events.[6]

More recent sources indicate that White scores approximately 54 to 56 percent. In 2005, GM Jonathan Rowson wrote that "the conventional wisdom is that White begins the game with a small advantage and, holding all other factors constant, scores approximately 56% to Black's 44%".[7] International Master (IM) John Watson wrote in 1998 that White had scored 56% for most of the 20th century, but that this figure had recently slipped to 55%.[8] The website ChessGames.com holds regularly updated statistics on its games database. On March 17, 2008 the database contained 460,703 games. White won 36.81%, 36.50% were drawn, and Black won 26.69%, resulting in a total White winning percentage of 55.06%.[9]

New In Chess observed in its 2000 Yearbook that of the 731,740 games in its database, White scored 54.8% overall; with the two most popular opening moves, White scored 54.1% in 349,855 games beginning 1.e4, and 56.1% in 296,200 games beginning 1.d4. The main reason that 1.e4 was less effective than 1.d4 was the Sicilian Defence (1.e4 c5), which gave White only a 52.3% score in 145,996 games.[10]

Statistician Jeff Sonas, in examining data from 266,000 games played between 1994 and 2001, concluded that White scored 54.1767% plus 0.001164 times White's Elo rating advantage, treating White's rating advantage as +390 if it is better than +390, or −460 if it is worse than −460. He found that White's advantage is equivalent to 35 rating points, i.e. if White has a rating 35 points below Black's, each player will have an expected score of 50%. Sonas also found that White's advantage is smaller (53%) in rapid games than in games at a slower ("classical") time control.[11] In the 462 games played at the 2009 World Blitz Chess Championship, White scored only 52.16% (W38.96 D26.41 L 34.63).[12][13]

Other writers conclude that there is a positive correlation between the players' ratings and White's score. According to GM Evgeny Sveshnikov, statistics show that White has no advantage over Black in games between beginners, but "if the players are stronger, White has the lead".[14] An analysis of the results of games in ChessBase's Mega 2003 database between players with similar Elo ratings, commissioned by GM András Adorján, showed that as the players' ratings went up, the percentage of draws increased, the proportion of decisive games that White won increased, and White's overall winning percentage increased.[15] For example, taking the highest and lowest of Adorján's rating categories of 1669 games played by the highest-rated players (Elo ratings 2700 and above), White scored 55.7% overall (W26.5 D58.4 L15.2), whereas of 34,924 games played by the lowest-rated players (Elo ratings below 2100), White scored 53.1% overall (W37.0 D32.1 L30.8).[16] Adorján also analyzed the results of games played at the very highest level: World Championship matches. Of 755 games played in 34 matches between 1886 and 1990, White won 234 (31.0%), drew 397 (52.6%), and lost 124 (16.4%), for a total White winning percentage of 57.3%.[17] In the last five matches in Adorjan's survey, all between Anatoly Karpov and Garry Kasparov, White won 31 (25.8%), drew 80 (66.7%), and lost 9 (7.5%), for a total White winning percentage of 59.2%.[18]

Chess Engines Grand Tournament (CEGT) tests computer chess engines by playing them against each other, with time controls of forty moves in one hundred and twenty minutes per player (40/120), and also 40/20 and 40/4, and uses the results of those games to compile a rating list for each time control. At the slowest time control (40/120), White has scored 55.4% (W34.7 D41.3 L24.0) in games played among 38 of the strongest chess engines (as of May 27, 2009).[19] At 40/20, White has scored 54.6% (W37.0 D35.2 L27.8) in games played among 284 engines (as of May 24, 2009).[20] At the fastest time control (40/4), White has scored 54.8% (W39.6 D30.5 L30.0), in games played among 128 programs (as of May 28, 2009).[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-m...ntage_in_chess "

Just wondering too ; So dose the BigBlind have an advantage in poker , like white dose in chess, & higher levels you go up(experience/buy in)? Say its Heads Up! ?

Last edited by 0HighTimes0; Thu Jun 14, 2012 at 08:41 AM..
 
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Frustrated - Thu Jun 14, 2012, 09:13 AM
(#7)
Brodermatt's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 88
BronzeStar
This has happened to me twice now! First hand of the tournament i get AK off sitting on the BB! 4 players have limped in! I raise 20x BB all 4 call! Rubbish comes out..8, 6, 10, everyone checks, turn comes an A! I shove and get called by a player who hits there kicker on the river! This has happened to me twice in a row now! having the best hand pre-flop, only to be beaten on the river! Ive lost a total of somewhere about 30 points!

The other night I set my alarm so I could play during the middle of the night, I woke up to register but fell back to sleep! I woke back to say that I finished 1414 out of 10,000! I received 14 points I think!

So am I better off registering in this tournament and not playing a single hand?? I hope not, but its working for me!!
 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:26 AM
(#8)
frasierbeams's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
Not sure how accurate my thoughts are so feel free to take with a pinch of salt.

This feels like the 14th time you have posted on this topic. You don't seem to understand a few basic points.

1. There is no skill in pushing all in with AA

2. This is a freeroll

3. You cannot effect how 99% of players in these play.

4. YOU could change your own play.

5. Chess doesn't have so many shoves you could try that.

Grade b

While there may not be a great deal of skill shoving AA , but in this instance with 6 limpers , the blinds and my stack , 3xBB raise is an inappropriate raise , any reasonable bet has me committed , so shoving is the only option . Yes of course I want a call , but would have been quite happy just to take the pot as it was . It seems like most of the advice/analyses that are posted in reply concentrate on pot equity versus range after a call is made , and no other factor . It seems to me the advice is i should be limping then calling shoves if the pot is laying me approx. 3/1 AFTER I make the call with just about any 2 cards , even taking into consideration range . In my opinion if J7 is not a hand that can be raised with (well ATC can be raised if you know how to play them post flop ) , it cant call a shove let alone a raise . Plus Greycowboy should know by now that in this spot I am not shoving any random holding trying to take the pot .

Yes I lost with AA all in pre flop (again ) , it just gets so infuriating when folk make spurious calls and hit their miracles all the time .

As for shoving AA pre flop this is something I seldom do , as my experience and results when shoving AA pre flop are woeful . However , I like most players , am prepared to shove AA pre flop in the right situation ; this was one of them .
 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:40 PM
(#9)
frasierbeams's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 145
if greycowboy is prepared to call off 90%+ of his stack with junk like this when I have aces i would happily shove all day long . I know he is a terrible player , been on his table many times : he appears to have no idea .
 
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Sat Jun 16, 2012, 08:21 PM
(#10)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by frasierbeams View Post
While there may not be a great deal of skill shoving AA , but in this instance with 6 limpers , the blinds and my stack , 3xBB raise is an inappropriate raise , any reasonable bet has me committed , so shoving is the only option . Yes of course I want a call , but would have been quite happy just to take the pot as it was . It seems like most of the advice/analyses that are posted in reply concentrate on pot equity versus range after a call is made , and no other factor . It seems to me the advice is i should be limping then calling shoves if the pot is laying me approx. 3/1 AFTER I make the call with just about any 2 cards , even taking into consideration range . In my opinion if J7 is not a hand that can be raised with (well ATC can be raised if you know how to play them post flop ) , it cant call a shove let alone a raise . Plus Greycowboy should know by now that in this spot I am not shoving any random holding trying to take the pot .

Yes I lost with AA all in pre flop (again ) , it just gets so infuriating when folk make spurious calls and hit their miracles all the time .

As for shoving AA pre flop this is something I seldom do , as my experience and results when shoving AA pre flop are woeful . However , I like most players , am prepared to shove AA pre flop in the right situation ; this was one of them .

I'm not saying don't shove. Just pointing out the move to make here is soooooooo clear it doesn't require a lot of skill (ebven i would shove here) as you seem to be implying in your posts that you are one of the few skillful players in this league and everyone else is just lucky.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Jun 16, 2012, 10:48 PM
(#11)
stedy_eddie's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 326
BronzeStar
Ok your play was exactly right, shoving with that many limpers is the only option here. Now with AA on a small stack 10bbish im wanting a call from one player and i dont care what they have! If they have 2 unconnected unsuited cards thats even better! I want a double up so i can go deep in the tournament. Now occasionally im going to get sucked out on and get ko'd, even though this is bloody annoying i know i've done the correct play and in the long run i'm going to come out ahead. This is the point you've got to remember, IN THE LONG RUN THE ODDS WILL BALANCE AND YOU WILL COME OUT AHEAD!!! It's not the end of the world losing one tournament as it's a league and you can recover from these bad beats, thats the good thing with the league it's designed to reward good consistent play.
Good luck in future shoves. May the cards be with you!
 
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Sun Jun 17, 2012, 02:22 AM
(#12)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
So much love for greycowboy
 

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