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2NL FR - Top pair/Top kicker - aggressive post-flop action v unknown player

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2NL FR - Top pair/Top kicker - aggressive post-flop action v unknown player - Thu Jun 14, 2012, 06:13 AM
(#1)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
This was only my second hand at a new table so I have no reads. I folded JQ offsuit in the BB previous hand to a button raise. Thisd hand I raised 4x in the SB holding AQs and was called by the big blind. I flopped a Q giving me top-top. Here is the action post flop until I get put all-in.



Although this is only 2NL, so plenty of fish and bad play - I have to give credit for the strong reraises and put the opp on some sort of decent hand. A set has me crushed, 2 pairs is pretty bad - TJ gives them a straight and there are flush draws out there too. Would I be mad to call? Or have I already invested too much to get away now when I could still be ahead of an unknown who might be playing back at the new guy at the table?

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Thu Jun 14, 2012, 10:22 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi Ed,

The real problem here occurs before this decision point imo. When you chose to 3b on the flop, what was your plan?

You're taking an aggressive action over an opponent's aggressive action, have a plan for your hand... if it's going to be an easy get it in, then the 3b is fine. If it's going to be an easy fold, then the 3b is fine. If you're not going to really know what to do, in what will be a huge pot, then the 3b is probably not good.

My personal feeling is I don't like the flop 3b at all... I think we're playing too big a pot for this hand strength vs. an unknown villain, and we really hate getting 4b all in. So now we're faced with the awful decision of either stacking off when behind, or putting half our stack in the middle and folding. It feels like a lose/lose decision. This hand could have been a sample hand in my Commitment Decisions class.

I think we are generally crushed here, so it's probably a fold. In a vacuum I would expect the villain's range to be strong value hands that are smashing us, and a few big combo draws that have good equity anyway. The price we're getting having put in half our stack already is very good, but I feel like we're mostly throwing good money after bad if we stack the rest off in this spot (without reads). Ultimately though, like the sample hand in the class, the real problem isn't what to do now, it's what happened earlier in the hand that got us into this ugly spot.

Dave


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Good seat? - Thu Jun 14, 2012, 10:57 AM
(#3)
bearxing's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 499
With three seats open, why did you pick the seat in front of the big stack? I would have picked seat 2.


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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:32 AM
(#4)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by bearxing View Post
With three seats open, why did you pick the seat in front of the big stack? I would have picked seat 2.
Hi bearxing -

I did say this was my second hand at the table, but by that I meant the second hand I played - When I joined the table a few hands back there were 8 seated and I took the only spot available. I sat out until the BB which is my usual practice - but I didn't actually watch those first few hands that I was not dealt into (which I normally would) - so didn't pick up any info - probably made a cuppa before I started to play as I was only really filling time before the server restart. A couple of players left/busted before I was dealt in.

Thanks for the response - I would have to admit that table/seat selection is something I probably don't pay enough attention too

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:39 AM
(#5)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Here was the outcome.



I tanked a bit before I made the call - I just felt that as the new player at the table I was often getting tested and that often enough top/top on the flop was ahead - with such a big pot and half my stack in already and no genuine reads I felt I could take the risk here.

Thanks for your feedback once again.

Good luck all

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:50 AM
(#6)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi Ed,

The real problem here occurs before this decision point imo. When you chose to 3b on the flop, what was your plan?

You're taking an aggressive action over an opponent's aggressive action, have a plan for your hand... if it's going to be an easy get it in, then the 3b is fine. If it's going to be an easy fold, then the 3b is fine. If you're not going to really know what to do, in what will be a huge pot, then the 3b is probably not good.

My personal feeling is I don't like the flop 3b at all... I think we're playing too big a pot for this hand strength vs. an unknown villain, and we really hate getting 4b all in. So now we're faced with the awful decision of either stacking off when behind, or putting half our stack in the middle and folding. It feels like a lose/lose decision. This hand could have been a sample hand in my Commitment Decisions class.

I think we are generally crushed here, so it's probably a fold. In a vacuum I would expect the villain's range to be strong value hands that are smashing us, and a few big combo draws that have good equity anyway. The price we're getting having put in half our stack already is very good, but I feel like we're mostly throwing good money after bad if we stack the rest off in this spot (without reads). Ultimately though, like the sample hand in the class, the real problem isn't what to do now, it's what happened earlier in the hand that got us into this ugly spot.

Dave
Hi Dave - I understand that you don't like the 3-bet, especially without a plan (my plan was that the opponent folds and I win - forgot to plan for the other outcome - doh!)

I am not quite sure what action you prefer though? - A fold to the reraise or a call/reevaluate on the turn? As in the scenario where we don't 3-bet we don't get the super-strong info of a 4-bet should we continue on the flop to a reraise or not?

Thanks

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Gone fishing - Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:30 AM
(#7)
bearxing's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 499
"When I joined the table a few hands back there were 8 seated and I took the only spot available."
That explains it. With all so many players with less than a full it does look more like a fish pond than a poker table.

Doug


3 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 11:04 AM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi Ed,

Our hand is too strong to fold directly to a raise, but I don't like re-raising unless I'm willing to commit, so I would call here. If the turn is scary and the villain continues to want to build a big pot then we can pass, but the pot will be .78c so he may bet like .40c which is easy to check-call, and I'd expect him to still have enough worse hands in his range blind v blind for this to be fine.

Another good testament to the power of position, it's just hard to proceed oop here.

Dave


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