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AKs folding

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AKs folding - Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:27 AM
(#1)
mgc1959's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 48
Hi

So I'm sitting in the early stages of a freeroll tourney, watching for a while as a guy keep going all in with rubbish, so I figure I have a read. I get AKs, (hearts), call his all in, and I'm right, he has K8 diamonds, which, I presume, makes me a decent favourite. Flop comes five diamonds and that's me out. Should I have folded the AKs, which goes against all advice you read elsewhere?

Mike
 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:20 AM
(#2)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgc1959 View Post
Hi

So I'm sitting in the early stages of a freeroll tourney, watching for a while as a guy keep going all in with rubbish, so I figure I have a read. I get AKs, (hearts), call his all in, and I'm right, he has K8 diamonds, which, I presume, makes me a decent favourite. Flop comes five diamonds and that's me out. Should I have folded the AKs, which goes against all advice you read elsewhere?

Mike
If you are playing a game like the Open Skill League Freerolls for leaderboard points AK is a fold until the latter stages if it is risking your tourney life - the number of times you lose will damage your points score more than what you are likely to gain from the extra chips. Survival is key.

If you are playing an individual tourney for the win - for the top spot prizes you can just play 'standard' and that is a call all day long versus this player and probably always in a freeroll.

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Thanks - Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:41 AM
(#3)
mgc1959's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 48
Cheers Ed, I did wonder - it was one of the open skill league freerolls, and I'm still not sure I understand how the points system works.

I'm just along the road from you, btw, in Penicuik.

Mike
 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:54 AM
(#4)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgc1959 View Post
Cheers Ed, I did wonder - it was one of the open skill league freerolls, and I'm still not sure I understand how the points system works.

I'm just along the road from you, btw, in Penicuik.

It says Haddington on your profile! I'm not sure if that is a move up OR down to Penicuik!!

Mike
We are pretty close then - as I am a Southsider - near the Meadows.

Good luck in the OSL - get yourself into the Premier League ASAP and you can play much better, standard and more fun poker.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:07 AM
(#5)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
As you are new to PSO the Mods should be along to direct you to all the good stuff here.

Much has been written about the vagaries of the Open Skill League and the strategy it demands - if you search the forums you will find lots of info. I made a thread the last time I needed to get back to the Premier League - you might find some useful tips here

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...ghlight=escape

cheers Ed
 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:43 AM
(#6)
mgc1959's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 48
Well it's certainly a move higher. Into the clouds, in fact, we're on the Penicuik Estate, right in the Pentlands, which makes a rainy day like today very much a poker day!

Thanks for your help, see you around.

Cheers

Mike
 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 08:40 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
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Hi mgc1959!

Welcome to the forum. Here's a link that will help to get you familiar with all that PSO has to offer.

The key in the league games is to survive as long as possible, regardless of chip stack. There are point penalties for an early exit and a point jump for getting ITM. Get ITM whenever possible.
With this being the case, I want to play much tighter than normal, epsecially early (to avoid negative league points). Without a made hand and knowing that I'll be ahead after all 5 cards show on the board, I don't want to put all my chips in.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 09:40 AM
(#8)
frasierbeams's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi mgc1959!

Welcome to the forum. Here's a link that will help to get you familiar with all that PSO has to offer.

The key in the league games is to survive as long as possible, regardless of chip stack. There are point penalties for an early exit and a point jump for getting ITM. Get ITM whenever possible.
With this being the case, I want to play much tighter than normal, epsecially early (to avoid negative league points). Without a made hand and knowing that I'll be ahead after all 5 cards show on the board, I don't want to put all my chips in.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)

While i understand the point you are making i think this bad advice .
 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 11:30 AM
(#9)
havocofsmeg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 489
Quote:
Originally Posted by frasierbeams View Post
While i understand the point you are making i think this bad advice .
If your playing the league, its actually very good, very sound advice. If your playing for the $5.50 1st place, then you begin to have a case.

Mgc1959
Once his shove is called, your the big favorite to win as he is drawing to 3 cards (eights) for a single outer, a 4 card run for a straight or a 3 card run for the flush (which he unfortunately hit). All three of these outcomes are usually unlikely, but they do unfortunately happen.

In your average tournament or sng, I would personally have no problems calling this, but in the PSO open league, this is a pretty easy fold due to the possibility of losing and ending up with negative points.
 
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Thanks for all the advice - Fri Jun 15, 2012, 11:41 AM
(#10)
mgc1959's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 48
It does seem to make a bit of a mockery of the game when you're attempting to survive by playing poorly. If you're folding AKs early in these tourneys, I suppose the same applies to Aces. So the only reason not to sit out would be to wait on the BB and hope to see a cheap flop, then hope to hit the nuts before risking anything. By which time it will be blatantly obvious to everyone you have a hand, therefore it's unlikely you'll make much. Meanwhile, blinds go bye, and you reach the next phase with a very short stack, forcing you to play with less than the best once you do start playing.

My point being that it seems the system rewards poor play, which can't be right, can it? I suppose this must be a tired debate, but I'm new to it, so apologies if I'm rehashing old chestnuts.

Thanks again for the help.

Mike
 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 11:56 AM
(#11)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgc1959 View Post
It does seem to make a bit of a mockery of the game when you're attempting to survive by playing poorly. If you're folding AKs early in these tourneys, I suppose the same applies to Aces. So the only reason not to sit out would be to wait on the BB and hope to see a cheap flop, then hope to hit the nuts before risking anything. By which time it will be blatantly obvious to everyone you have a hand, therefore it's unlikely you'll make much. Meanwhile, blinds go bye, and you reach the next phase with a very short stack, forcing you to play with less than the best once you do start playing.

My point being that it seems the system rewards poor play, which can't be right, can it? I suppose this must be a tired debate, but I'm new to it, so apologies if I'm rehashing old chestnuts.

Thanks again for the help.

Mike
You are right - it is perverse - and only applies in the Open Skill League due to the weird set-up. But it works. Check out the League Standings over several months and you will see familiar names in the top twenty regularly taking the big League Prizes. I guarantee 99% have this strategy.

In a 10K field almost half will be freerollers who are not members of PSO, or PSOers from the Premier League - none of whom can even get Open Skill League points awarded. After 3/4 an hour 60% of the field have busted and by half an hour later you are down to the positive points. The slow time banking/folding strategy will get you to around the top 12-15% in any tourney before you blind down - playin zero% VPIP - and you will pick up regular points. Win a hand or 2, especially a double up - and you are getting into the top 8-12%. If all your finishes are up there you are constantly building points and rarely losing many.

(It doesn't work in the Premier League due to the smaller fields, larger stacks and different blind structures. )

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh -EdinFreeMan
 
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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 04:34 PM
(#12)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
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Hi Mike!

Yes, these tourneys are totally different from cash tourneys and there is a reason for it. It's to teach patience to an extreme. The largest fault that most poker players have is wanting to play too many hands, too fast. By having the point system weighted to how long you last, while it won't teach optimal play, it will over-emphasize not going all-in too much before getting ITM and making $$ in a tourney.

The premier league will allow for a better game than the open league (there will still be shove monkeys, but I've even seen the same shove monkeys in $300 WSOP events). They'll still be there in all games, but patience is a very, very necessary skill to learn. You'll see all the types of players that are in the freerolls, in the small, medium, large buy-in tourneys too, so you'll need to learn to play against all of them.

Good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Jun 16, 2012, 04:33 AM
(#13)
mgc1959's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 48
Thanks for all the replies - I tried the system yesterday, and it got me in the top 20%, although it left me with no chips to play with, so I had to take a punt on 8's and lost. To alleviate the boredom of constant folding, (My final hands played was below 20%), I made notes on every bad play I witnessed, and there were a few!
 
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Sat Jun 16, 2012, 04:34 AM
(#14)
mgc1959's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 48
But I still can't work out the points system, I guess I'll just have to watch it and see.
 
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Sat Jun 16, 2012, 05:00 AM
(#15)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgc1959 View Post
To alleviate the boredom of constant folding, (My final hands played was below 20%), I made notes on every bad play I witnessed, and there were a few!
I understand the boredom, but try to find another way of coping with it. Keep doing what you did here and you'll soon need a bigger hard drive
 
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Sat Jun 16, 2012, 05:22 AM
(#16)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Hi Mike -

As you are not too near the top (yet) - I wouldn't worry too much about the scoring system - just keep getting those deep runs and you will pick up points easily.

The actual technical details of the scoring system are available here.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...coring-Formula

Basically the higher you finish the more points you get! And like a real MTT the points 'pay-out' rises very steeply at the top end, especially once 'ITM', at the FT and in the top 3.

But - when you get very high up the leaderboard you have to run deeper to get to the positive points and get less points even for very high finishes - basically it is like a handicap system, so your current league position and score when you enter a tourney is taken into account - if you are first you are severely handicapped compared to someone lower down.

Here is an extract from the current OSL Leader's results.

djjazz222
Date Time (ET) Event Entries Position Scored Start End
06/15/2012 13:00 OSL 10000 420 29.16 2590.55 2619.71
06/15/2012 09:00 OSL 10000 396 31.55 2559.00 2590.55
06/15/2012 05:00 OSL 10000 597 18.91 2540.09 2559.00
06/14/2012 21:00 OSL 8004 1207 -11.61 2551.70 2540.09
06/14/2012 17:00 OSL 10000 1112 0.35 2551.35 2551.70
06/14/2012 13:00 OSL 10000 1225 -2.28 2553.63 2551.35

You can see from the finish in bold black - they only reach positive points by getting into the top 11%. They lose points below this, as for those highlighted red.

Whereas you will see from your two results yesterday that you are picking up + points for much lower finishing places, 11.3pts for 2,105th and 14.43 for 1,873rd.

So you are given a chance to 'catch up' on those above you even though your absolute results are still worse than theirs.

The bad news is you are 1,100 points behind - so need to play a lot more tourneys to catch up that big a gap!

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Sat Jun 16, 2012, 05:32 AM
(#17)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
I understand the boredom, but try to find another way of coping with it. Keep doing what you did here and you'll soon need a bigger hard drive
So True DMan..

I used to 'note' and colour code all the players from the top 50 of the OSL leaderboard, by searching for them in the tourney lobby - that way when they were seated at my table they were instantly recognisable.

The top regulars are usually the only players in a PSO tourney you can exploit in the early/mid stages, if you ever get into a situation where it is possible, as you know they will fold to strong raises unlike 99% of the field. You also know they will rarely get involved without mega-strength so can avoid their big plays.

Other than that, default note in OSL is ''FISH'...

Ed
 
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Sat Jun 16, 2012, 05:42 AM
(#18)
Briany84's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgc1959 View Post
But I still can't work out the points system, I guess I'll just have to watch it and see.

Hi mgc1959, here is a link to the scoring system on PSO, might help you understand a bit better pal, http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...coring-Formula

Hope this helps
 
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Sat Jun 16, 2012, 06:43 AM
(#19)
mgc1959's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 48
Thanks guys, I'll go and get a degree in advanced physics instead, just because I think that might be slightly simpler.

I think I'll have to watch it all for a while to get a sense of it. The toughest thing is not to get involved, as I discovered to my cost this morning. Where do you find the results of the tournaments?
 
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Sat Jun 16, 2012, 10:00 AM
(#20)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi mgc1959!

The leaderboard for the open league can be found here.

Just type your name in and hit search and it will go right to you and your results.

Hope this helps.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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