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Some advice needed on the 360s

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Some advice needed on the 360s - Tue Jun 19, 2012, 09:47 AM
(#1)
DaiDark's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 51
Hi guys am look for advice on the 360s mtt,s ive gone from placeing four or five in day to 4 or 5 in a week..ive take onbord what a trainer said about takeing risks to make a bigger stack so i understand that 5 in a day is not going to happen as much but the last tables dont seem to be comeing and its hit my bankroll bad am just under 5bucks all am trying to do is inprov my game as best i can any advive welcome thanks.
 
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Tue Jun 19, 2012, 10:50 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi DD,

I've done a couple member reviews in Live Training on the .10c 360's and in both cases the general level of opponent play was somewhere between beginner and atrocious (worse than beginner). Play was very loose early and people stack themselves of ridiculously light. Early on the "risks" you should be taking to build a stack should be pure value plays imo, no stealing.

When you get to the late stages, what we observed is that the field tends to consist of a few lucky donks and the rest are mostly tight players who simply are there because they out-waited all of the unlucky donks. At this point you can look for steal/resteal spots a bit more often as the tighter players will be good targets for this.

And any time you receive a premium holding, play it fast and hard. You will get loose action far more often than not, especially early in the events.

Honestly the play was so bad, mostly solid play, in this case nothing much fancy, and making sure to try and extract good value from strong hands is good enough. There will still be variance in 360 player events that are basically like hyperturbos, but the money is there.

Hope this helps.

Dave

GL!


Head Live Trainer
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Tue Jun 19, 2012, 03:02 PM
(#3)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Everything Dave said and let me re-emphasize one key point----DO NOT BLUFF in these early. You will get called. Every time.

Later,when you have picked out the bubble watcher/ladder climber types you can exploit their nitty tendencies (if they push back they ALWAYS have it,do not look them up...) and steal from them whilst still waiting for better hands to play whack-a-donk with the luckers who will invariably make it deep. In the times I played these that was really the 2 most prevalent player types---the ATC shove-tards and the uber-nits. Find the balance between and how to exploit each type and you'll be fine.

As to the cashing 4 or 5 a day and just a few a week...meh,since you switched up you could be taking on bad variance as well as the flattening out of your ITM % due to the switch,but personally I think you're doing the right thing.

I was no hero in these when US players could play here,but if we get back I know where my mistakes were now and these are a game I intend to tackle as I would like to improve my Turbo play. My mistake in these was focusing too much on making ITM instead of running deep. You will NEVER cash at a high enough percentage of these to be profitable if you're just limping over the finish line into the first 1-3 payout levels.

Push for the FT's and the wins.The math is straight forward---finish in the three lowest payout levels the best you can do is 3.5x your buy-in back,finish top 3 and the worst you'll do is almost 37 times your buy-in back. Win and it's 68 times your buy-in back. That's a lot of cover against the inevitable variance that you will see,guaranteed,in these.

For you,RIGHT NOW,here's the key---you seem to value your BR and don't want to punt it and have to start over from zero,whether that would involve another (or first...) deposit or another freeroll grind from zero. If that is the case then for the time being I suggest that you walk away from these and get back (or start) grinding the astronomer freerolls and play every weekly round 2 tourney that you can. Get yourself to $20 at least and then you can start properly going after these games and play them for their full potential instead of having to play with a severely short BR which will lead to you passing on spots where you should be making the bolder play instead of the timid one. That's only human nature. You want to be flush enough BR wise so that you can play games correctly when you sit down instead of fretting about what happens if you don't at least min-cash. That will only keep you on an endless treadmill at best or lead to going Busto at worst.

So that's my advice. Get properly rolled for these,with the enormous variance that is inherent in the 360's I would want 100 buy-ins that I have allocated for them and them alone before I took on a serious grind in them. You're going to want and need volume to beat these down,so be rolled for volume. After you have that then play them to run deep and eschew any min-cash mentality.

Tight early and hard and fast when you have the goods and then pick off the exploitable nits at the bubble and after and you'll be on your way.

GL
 
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Tue Jun 19, 2012, 03:14 PM
(#4)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
One last thing about going back to the freerolls until you grind up to $20 or more...it won't be easy and unless you get lucky it won't be quick but it WILL be beneficial to your game.

It will teach you patience (or reinforce that trait if you already have some patience...) and that's a good thing. Not only at the tables but off them as well,i.e. patience and taking the long view with your BR. Learning BR discipline is as important as anything that you will ever learn in this game if your goal is to be a profitable player. It may very well be the MOST important thing.

Also I can tell you with 100% certainty that lessons and skills learned and honed in grinding the freeolls WILL carry over into the mini-micro games. Not just the .10 360's but also the .25 45 and 90 man SNG's and the .10 ($50 added) and .25 ($100 added) MTT's. Trust me,if you can grind up to $20 or better by freerolling it you will develop the skill set you need to grind these games with success. Then as you do that you can pick up what you'll need through experience,self analysis,sound boarding other players in the analysis sections here and study,study,study to move up to the next level and then the one beyond that and so on. Rinse and repeat.

It's a process and it is work but it can be a lot of fun and very rewarding in ways that have nothing to do with money to take this journey.
 
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Tue Jun 19, 2012, 05:24 PM
(#5)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaiDark View Post
Hi guys am look for advice on the 360s mtt,s ive gone from placeing four or five in day to 4 or 5 in a week..ive take onbord what a trainer said about takeing risks to make a bigger stack so i understand that 5 in a day is not going to happen as much but the last tables dont seem to be comeing and its hit my bankroll bad am just under 5bucks all am trying to do is inprov my game as best i can any advive welcome thanks.
The previous advice is excellent!

Another hook that you may be running into, is the play has gotten better at all levels. There's a lot more information on how to play poker, and it's easier to come by today. I've found the games I play have gotten a bit harder to play as profitably. The way I keep ahead of my competition is by constantly studying the game. I read books, play, go to training sessions, and when I have time I follow the forums. Poker is always evolving, the more you know, the better your chances of being able to 'read' your opponent, and size your bets. Reading your opponent is one of the keys to winning poker. There are many videos in the PSO library that will get you back on track.


"May the cards be with you!"
 
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thanks - Wed Jun 20, 2012, 11:57 AM
(#6)
DaiDark's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 51
thanks Moxie Pip there is a lot in there that i have done and a lot that can help think i would rather do a 90man non turbo than a 360 even tho they they take 3hours after ive red this and the lesson we had not so long back i recall a trainer saying only do these unless you can beat the game most of the time other wise dont bother/Right you tell me what free rolls i can do ?the open skill league is one i would have to win that as 2nd is a buck?the 100kdepositor tickits runs out so they be no good
hubbles round2it is then?i dont know of any others?
 
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thanks - Wed Jun 20, 2012, 12:02 PM
(#7)
DaiDark's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 51
thanks TheLangolier i think 25 90man non turbos be my next step as b4 i would only do 990mans then i went to 360s time to move on? very confused
 
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Wed Jun 20, 2012, 05:02 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Well the .25 45 and 90 man's tend to not be quite as brutal variance wise,but that does not mean that they are variance free either. And king_spadez makes and excellent point in his post---there will be players,at ANY level,in ANY game,who do have some skills. And in my experience I would estimate that you will run into more of them in the .25 45 and 90 man SNG's than you would in the .10 360's.

That's not to sat these games aren't beatable---they are. And you can definitely tuck in and play a more "proper" game of poker in these,the 90 man's especially,than you can in the 360's and the 990's (especially the 990's...).

As to when it's time to move on that depends a lot on the player. But the one thing that changes for no one is being properly rolled to tackle a set of games. I tended to be very conservative with my BR,as I freerolled it up and never went Busto and had to deposit. If that's your goal then you want to have plenty of cover behind you BR wise when you go to tackle a set of games. So that's why I suggested grinding up to $20 or so via the freeroll path. If you want to be more aggressive in your BR approach and don't mind making a deposit or two then by all means stay with that approach. Whatever floats your boat.

As far as the freeroll options what you mentioned are all that are available that I know about. Like I said the Astronomer/Weekly Round 2 path will take effort and patience but these are good traits to develop. As to the skill leagues when US players could play here we only had the one,I did play it,but I was always focused on getting as high a monthly prize as I could,not on the payout for individual league tourneys (though I did take 2 down...).

GL in whatever you decide.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 05:06 PM..
 
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? what guys - Wed Jun 20, 2012, 07:45 PM
(#9)
DaiDark's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 51
i have just found the 360 play money tourneys looks like i will be hanging out on these more now as i have deposit many times in total am not down in my earnings am well up if any thing But i have never deposit an seen a true profit like doubleing what i have put on yes i get that swings happen to every poker player but i think there is no way back from this one am the type of guy who like the buzz of the cash i could not even think about free rolling trying to make 20 bucks i would rather not play at all am not knocking the freerolls just the game is not the same as when you have the cash on it also if u hit the last table on a free roll you think this could of been cash!
 
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Wed Jun 20, 2012, 08:10 PM
(#10)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,862
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi DaiDark!

For a play money game to practice with, try the 2110 buy-in (medium buy-in) 45 player tourneys. They are very similar to the quarter 45 player ones. The quarter ones are a touch tougher, especially near the bubble, but they are similar.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed Jun 20, 2012, 09:00 PM
(#11)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
I'm a tad confused here...you're saying you WILL play play money games but you WON'T play freerolls (which can either pay you directly or win you a ticket to a Weekly Round 2 wherein you can win $)?

BTW,in the Astronomers just forget trying to get to final tables and take them down. It doesn't get you jack squat more than you would get from being first player out after the tickets are secured. So punt the time suck.

Like I said if you want to take a more risky BR approach then out of the games you've mentioned myself I would lean towards the .25 45 and 90 man SNG's. Also if you want the "buzz" of a potentially bigger score for a dime or a quarter then don't forget the .10 ($50 added) and the .25 ($100 added) MTT's---tourney tab,then Micro.

These are where you can win the biggest bucks for a .10 or .25 investment,but being MTT's the variance is much higher of course.

Best I personally ever did in one of those was 4th out of 2000 something runners in the .25---paid $33 and change on a quarter. Nothing wrong with that at all.
 

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