Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Tournament Section (MTTs & STTs) /

TT in BB shoving over big stacks open raise from the cut-off

Old
Default
TT in BB shoving over big stacks open raise from the cut-off - Sat Jun 23, 2012, 09:23 AM
(#1)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
I have a 25K stack with the BB at 600/1200, so still over 20BBs but not by much - and with the next blind level at 800/1600 I am starting to get short, when I pick up TT on the button.

I was considering whether to raise or shove if the table folded and I was first to act on the button in this hand, I may well have just shoved as the two stacks in the blinds could well shove back over a raise, both have me covered but not by much and might want to apply pressure versus a button steal type raise and then I would probably have to call anyway.

However the big stack to my right opened a standardish amount from the cut-off - which kind of made my mind up that I had to shove if I reraised. I ranged them pretty tight - but I think I am mostly ahead even against something like 15% opening range.



My shove gets get called into a race against AK and obviously I get wiped out, no complaints.

I put these actual hands into pokerstove and see that I am a 56.9% to 43.1% favourite, which is a bigger edge than I thought even though I knew I was ahead when the cards were turned up.

I don't mind the outcome,knowing I was ahead and could have swapped stack sizes with the opponent if I held up - but I am wondering if my overall plan is OK - either shove over the blinds if folded to, and be happy with the dead money if they fold - or reshove over a cut-off raise. TT sometimes seems a bit light to shove with over 20BBs - 4 overcards, so potentially 4 higher pairs and up to three opponents who could call with any or all combinations of those overcards as well.

It is the $0.55 NLHE $1K guarantee and we were already in the money. I bust here 176th for $1.53 so only min cash really but I think I should be looking for spots like this to gamble and go for FTs - top 3 prizes in this were $200/$145/$103 so I am hoping for one of those some day!

Any thoughts if I went too strong, too early, a bit light - or was this line fine?

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Sat Jun 23, 2012 at 09:26 AM..
 
Old
Default
Sat Jun 23, 2012, 12:27 PM
(#2)
dopplerboyf5's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 149
BronzeStar
Your in the money so its all good. After seeing the hand I would have re-raised instead of shoving.
You said that they played pretty tight so when UTG raised that should have told you that he had something worth playing. He only made small raise so when you re-raise and he calls your re-raise then you get to see flop. After that it would be easy to shove k's and 10's. You still get same outcome but hind sight is 20-20.

It was worth the gamble!!!!!
 
Old
Default
Sat Jun 23, 2012, 12:52 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Ed!

I agree with the thought process of once getting ITM, I'm looking to get to the final table, then the top 3. Before black friday, these used to be 50 cent tournies and I was playing them very frequently. That was the same thought process that I used in them.

Especially if I thought that the blinds would fold, I like the shove with 10's here. Even if the opp is playing a top 10% hand, I'm a 52-48% leader to more than double up... when the blinds go up in a minute or two, I'm down to 15BB, so I'm happy to take a coin-flip against one opp (when hopefully the blinds fold).
I wouldn't want to 3-bet here and not shove, as a std 3-bet is over 1/3 of my stack, so I can't fold and would be committing to the pot.. and if I'm doing that, I want to be the one to shove first.

Unfortunately, the 10's lose the coin flip to AK, but since I'm looking to accumulate chips, I'll take a flip in this spot.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 09:54 AM
(#4)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
ED, I like your shove and trust your read. +1 to the previous posts but I have to stress the antes! I watch post after post from member after member saying I have xxx BB's and most of the time it's wrong because you forget to account for the antes. ( I don't mean to pick on you here ) Your effective stack is NOT 20 bb's! You must add the 1125 in antes in the blinds to be more accurate. Once you do this and realise that you actually have only about 13 bb's this changes your action!
Let me repeat. You do not have 20 bb's you have 13! You have 1125 in antes and when you add 750 ( 2/3 of the antes to the bb ) the blinds are now effectively 2000/1000 and your stack is 25k so you have about 13 bb's! Now ask yourself, based on this same hand and same read am I playing this differently than I did?

 
Old
Default
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 10:30 AM
(#5)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19honu62 View Post
ED, I like your shove and trust your read. +1 to the previous posts but I have to stress the antes! I watch post after post from member after member saying I have xxx BB's and most of the time it's wrong because you forget to account for the antes. ( I don't mean to pick on you here ) Your effective stack is NOT 20 bb's! You must add the 1125 in antes in the blinds to be more accurate. Once you do this and realise that you actually have only about 13 bb's this changes your action!
Let me repeat. You do not have 20 bb's you have 13! You have 1125 in antes and when you add 750 ( 2/3 of the antes to the bb ) the blinds are now effectively 2000/1000 and your stack is 25k so you have about 13 bb's! Now ask yourself, based on this same hand and same read am I playing this differently than I did?

Thanks for the additional feedback Chris -

I understand what you are saying, my stack is already effectively shorter than a 20BB stack would be on a table with no antes - and therefore the simple Stack/BB ratio is not full enough information to make the decision.

This is just the shorthand I am used to using to describe my position - (as I do in fact still have 20x the big blind!) - so what I am really doing in my description is being a bit lazy missing out some extra useful info here by using that straightforward ratio.

I will bear this in mind for future posts as I think it does need pointing out.

Cheers



Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
Old
Default
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 10:40 AM
(#6)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
Good that you acknowledge it Ed my point is that we are affecting many members here that rely on the advice and thoughts of solid players like you that post here. If they look at your scenario and read the answers, they go away thinking oh I know how to play this now! Which of course would be misleading.
I fully understand it is not your intent to mislead anyone but the members that are hear to learn need all of the pieces and clear and concise answers to help them improve!
Keep up the great work and run gooder!

 
Old
Default
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 04:27 PM
(#7)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Once the antes come out a good yardstick to us is "M" ratio...

"M"= stack
--------------------------------
BB+SB+total antes

So in your case you had 25,047 chips / 2925 in blinds and antes for an "M" of 8.56.

Dan Harrington's chart on "M"....

M>20: GREEN ZONE Most desirable,play conservatively or aggressively as you choose

10< M <20: YELLOW ZONE Must take on more risk,hands containing small pairs or small suited connectors lose value

6< M <10: ORANGE ZONE Main focus is to be first in whatever you decide to play,important to preserve chips (no limp/raise folds,no chasing post flop...)

1< M <6: RED ZONE Move all-in or fold. Period.

M <1: DEAD ZONE Get here you're totally depending on luck. Push all-in into any empty pot.


Pretty sure you may be familiar with this Ed. Doesn't hurt to be reminded though and I'm sure there are some who may not know of "M" ratio.

Keep in mind this is for tournament poker and SNG's only. "M" at a ring table is rather pointless as one can feel free to reload at any time.

Good luck,better decisions.
 
Old
Default
Sun Jun 24, 2012, 04:40 PM
(#8)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Once the antes come out a good yardstick to us is "M" ratio...

"M"= stack
--------------------------------
BB+SB+total antes

So in your case you had 25,047 chips / 2925 in blinds and antes for an "M" of 8.56.

Dan Harrington's chart on "M"....

M>20: GREEN ZONE Most desirable,play conservatively or aggressively as you choose

10< M <20: YELLOW ZONE Must take on more risk,hands containing small pairs or small suited connectors lose value

6< M <10: ORANGE ZONE Main focus is to be first in whatever you decide to play,important to preserve chips (no limp/raise folds,no chasing post flop...)

1< M <6: RED ZONE Move all-in or fold. Period.

M <1: DEAD ZONE Get here you're totally depending on luck. Push all-in into any empty pot.


Pretty sure you may be familiar with this Ed. Doesn't hurt to be reminded though and I'm sure there are some who may not know of "M" ratio.

Keep in mind this is for tournament poker and SNG's only. "M" at a ring table is rather pointless as one can feel free to reload at any time.

Good luck,better decisions.
Thanks Moxie

I am 'aware'of this but any reminder is welcome as I am damned if I can keep it in my ageing brain - I always know there is something to account for but lordy knows what the details are...

(I often walk into a room and think 'what did I come in here for?' Now I know a lot of 'older' people do that, but when the room is four feet by three and only has a toilet in it you would think I could at least have a pretty good guess...)

Good to see you were in the PSOSOP Play Money PLO game last night - I was hoping to FT with you, JWK and Lango - but only one of us got that far...but then he needed to build a lead before he heads to the Vegas..



Ed from Edinburgh - edinFreeManm
 
Old
Default
Mon Jun 25, 2012, 12:44 AM
(#9)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
Lord help us if the US players come back, the games will change again. I just adjusted to the games without the Americans.

 
Old
Default
Mon Jun 25, 2012, 04:56 PM
(#10)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
It's Flippin' Time and against the cutoff you still have fold equity if he have a hand like KJ KQ and some other players might fold AK pre flop "NIT"

Last edited by marvinsytan; Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 04:59 PM..
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com