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2NL- AQo vs limpers

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2NL- AQo vs limpers - Tue Jun 26, 2012, 11:06 PM
(#1)
animosama's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 63
PokerStars Hand #82512820325: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2012/06/26 22:34:39 ET
Table 'Naef' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Opi-ca86 ($0.97 in chips)
Seat 2: disthere ($2.40 in chips)
Seat 3: animosama ($2.26 in chips)
Seat 4: snakeman43 ($1.56 in chips)
Seat 5: guigui_49800 ($2.15 in chips)
Seat 6: gruel3528 ($2 in chips)
disthere: posts small blind $0.01
animosama: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to animosama [Ah Qc]
snakeman43: calls $0.02
guigui_49800: calls $0.02
gruel3528: folds
Opi-ca86: calls $0.02
disthere: calls $0.01
animosama: raises $0.14 to $0.16
snakeman43: calls $0.14
guigui_49800: folds
Opi-ca86: folds
disthere: folds
*** FLOP *** [3c 6c Ks]
animosama: bets $0.24
snakeman43: raises $1.16 to $1.40 and is all-in
animosama: folds
Uncalled bet ($1.16) returned to snakeman43
snakeman43 collected $0.83 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.86 | Rake $0.03
Board [3c 6c Ks]
Seat 1: Opi-ca86 (button) folded before Flop
Seat 2: disthere (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: animosama (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: snakeman43 collected ($0.83)
Seat 5: guigui_49800 folded before Flop
Seat 6: gruel3528 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Villain 50/11 29 hand

Should I have isolated with this hand OOP ?

Should I have c-bet this flop ?
 
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Wed Jun 27, 2012, 07:07 AM
(#2)
Schnech's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 104
This seems like an easy one, but it actually is pretty tricky - as you just saw by yourself.

I think your play is perfectly fine. You are oop, but therefor you need the initiative to really play this hand profitable. Results oriented and if you could predict the future you would have just check/folded the hand - but surely we can not do this.

Let's see what you achieved: All the limpers folded and the loose/passive guy calls. His range is totally wide open. Shouldn't be his 52% of hands, but this is also possible. So your hand plays perfectly fine against his range, also postflop oop.

Now the cbet: This is where it gets tricky. Since you (and me) don't have much reads on this guy (cbet calling %, cbet raising %, was he just passive pre, but aggressive post flop when he hits a pair) this actually is a check or a cbet. I don't mind the cbet.

What you have to consider is: If he calls cbets pretty often, don't cbet this flop. If he folds to cbets pretty often (even with lower pairs), cbet. If he raises cbets often with TP, don't cbet. Since we don't know all this, I would check and maybe call a small bet here. This has two advantages:

1. Loose passive guys, even if they hit a monster on the flop, don't bet big on the flop - if they bet at all.

2. You don't really know what you are doing with your cbet here. Are you bluffing or value betting? You surely may do both, but you really don't have a clue. Neither do I.

Considering that I would check/fold (or call a really small bet) this flop.
 
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Wed Jun 27, 2012, 08:41 AM
(#3)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
The preflop raise was a slight bit heavy 8c 10c would of been adequate especailly against players who are likely to call regardless of your raise.

These type players I would shove on with AQ, trying to get them to fold preflop as AQ is such a dodgey hand often been crushed by Ak.
IT is always hard to determine where you are with AQ in a hand as it is a overrated hand.

The flop comes and you bet out with fresh air, not really a move you should make against a loose LAG player, he reraises then you have to muck.

Check fold the flop would of been the ideal move to make.

Play a bit more cautious against loose players as it is much harder to determine what hand range they have, I personally like to get the chips in pre flop against this type player with premium hands and cross my fingers and hope i hold up, not exactly scientific poker but at the worse they call your shove with a mediocre hand.
 
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Wed Jun 27, 2012, 10:35 AM
(#4)
Kazhaam's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 13
The play seems fine. Don't be result oriented! You just happened to run in a hand (or a crazy buff)

But I really don't like Schnech idea to check with the intention of calling a small bet. Or even Check folding.

1) As a general rule, this type of guy tends not bet with air (or draws). (At least on flop)
So checking to call seems like a bad plan.
If he bets, you're assumption should be that he has some kind of a hand, which beats A high a good portion of the time. Hero calling an unknown is never a good idea. Plus, you still have to get through the Turn and River.

By checking, you are putting yourself on the wrong hand of the guessing game.

2) IF flop is checked, what's the plan on the Turn?
You still have no idea if you are good (which is still likely BTW againts that villain) . But he could have caught that card and now you're behind. What's your plan then? Check fold? So You give a second (and maybe a third) chance to villain to steal the pot away from you with a bluff or semi bluff, or to catch up and hit some kind of pair.

3) AQo is ahead here on a lot of this guy probable range of hands, which is huge.

Let's see. On the small sample: he did raise a few times. So lets get the big pairs AA to TT and AJ-AK out of his limp/call range. That leaves all small pairs 22 to 99, probably any A, suited or not, any broadway combo, all suited connectors from 45s to JTs, probably a lot of suited unconnected cards, like J7s, 96s etc., some unsuited connectors as well.

Well, AQ high is ahead of a lot of that, so by betting, you bet for value against all his complete miss. There are a few draws he could have, which you are still ahead of, so you're still betting for value. And he could even fold some really weak hands like 22 or 35 or 44 that have you beat, so a little bit of bluff.

To recap: If you bet yourself, you bet for value VS a good part of his range (which is air and draws) and you also give Villain an opportunity to throw away a better hand, like Schnech also said.

Seems like a win-win situation to me when you bet.

Sometimes he'll wake up with a better hand then yours and call or even ship it. But then, you just fold, take a note on that huge raise, and move on to the next hand.
 
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Wed Jun 27, 2012, 10:46 AM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhaam View Post
The play seems fine. Don't be result oriented! You just happened to run in a hand (or a crazy buff)

But I really don't like Schnech idea to check with the intention of calling a small bet. Or even Check folding.

1) As a general rule, this type of guy tends not bet with air (or draws). (At least on flop)
So checking to call seems like a bad plan.
If he bets, you're assumption should be that he has some kind of a hand, which beats A high a good portion of the time. Hero calling an unknown is never a good idea. Plus, you still have to get through the Turn and River.

By checking, you are putting yourself on the wrong hand of the guessing game.

2) IF flop is checked, what's the plan on the Turn?
You still have no idea if you are good (which is still likely BTW againts that villain) . But he could have caught that card and now you're behind. What's your plan then? Check fold? So You give a second (and maybe a third) chance to villain to steal the pot away from you with a bluff or semi bluff, or to catch up and hit some kind of pair.

3) AQo is ahead here on a lot of this guy probable range of hands, which is huge.

Let's see. On the small sample: he did raise a few times. So lets get the big pairs AA to TT and AJ-AK out of his limp/call range. That leaves all small pairs 22 to 99, probably any A, suited or not, any broadway combo, all suited connectors from 45s to JTs, probably a lot of suited unconnected cards, like J7s, 96s etc., some unsuited connectors as well.

Well, AQ high is ahead of a lot of that, so by betting, you bet for value against all his complete miss. There are a few draws he could have, which you are still ahead of, so you're still betting for value. And he could even fold some really weak hands like 22 or 35 or 44 that have you beat, so a little bit of bluff.

To recap: If you bet yourself, you bet for value VS a good part of his range (which is air and draws) and you also give Villain an opportunity to throw away a better hand, like Schnech also said.

Seems like a win-win situation to me when you bet.

Sometimes he'll wake up with a better hand then yours and call or even ship it. But then, you just fold, take a note on that huge raise, and move on to the next hand.
Hi Animosama!

^^ This.

Failing to C bet here oop is probably a mistake, given the info you have on the opps.

Trying a trickier play like a C/R is unlikely to work vs a villain who flopped any decent part of this flop and shows 55/11 type stats as well.

Check/calling kinda sooks too, simply because you;d allow a free card that could easily beat you, and because even if you spike your A (about your only potential clean out), you really have no clue if that is really enough to continue.

I too think your line was perfectly fine.

Hope it helps.

- JDean


Double Bracelet Winner
 
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Wed Jun 27, 2012, 11:22 AM
(#6)
animosama's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 63
Thanks I find my self in this spots a lot were there are limpers And I have decent isolation hands like AQ-9 and KQ-9 medium and small pocket pairs but I am OOP with these hands should i continue raising with theses hands eventhough playing OOP is a very tricky thing to do if I miss ?
 
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Wed Jun 27, 2012, 12:01 PM
(#7)
Kazhaam's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 13
I depens how many limpers, how likely they are to call a big raise PF and how they play post flop.

If you can usually get it down to 1 or 2 (max) limpers and they are the fit orfold type, I think I'd raise a pretty big value range, no matter if I am IP or OOP, then Cbet pretty much any flop to collect the dead money they keep leaving there.

f you constantly get called in 3 or 4 spots, or are facing a calling station. I would then put a tighter value range, because you'll want to have a decent hand to continue post flop, especially now that the pot is already big.

For very small pairs, I usually tend to just check or complete to see the flop multiway and play for set value against a bunch of opponents.


You can always look in your Database to those specific spots where you get those hands in the blinds and it's limped to you.
What did you do, what happened, why do you find it tricky?
Is it all hands, just some of the hands, in small pots, big pots, multiway, headsup, specific type of opponents?
Try to define the situations more so you can try to pinpoint where you're having the problem so it's a lot easier to find different options

Also don't forget that I'm sure many times, you raised, then Cbet and took it down when you miss. So it is working as intended, not just always, like it's supposed to be.
 
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Wed Jun 27, 2012, 01:32 PM
(#8)
animosama's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhaam View Post
I depens how many limpers, how likely they are to call a big raise PF and how they play post flop.

If you can usually get it down to 1 or 2 (max) limpers and they are the fit orfold type, I think I'd raise a pretty big value range, no matter if I am IP or OOP, then Cbet pretty much any flop to collect the dead money they keep leaving there.

f you constantly get called in 3 or 4 spots, or are facing a calling station. I would then put a tighter value range, because you'll want to have a decent hand to continue post flop, especially now that the pot is already big.

For very small pairs, I usually tend to just check or complete to see the flop multiway and play for set value against a bunch of opponents.


You can always look in your Database to those specific spots where you get those hands in the blinds and it's limped to you.
What did you do, what happened, why do you find it tricky?
Is it all hands, just some of the hands, in small pots, big pots, multiway, headsup, specific type of opponents?
Try to define the situations more so you can try to pinpoint where you're having the problem so it's a lot easier to find different options

Also don't forget that I'm sure many times, you raised, then Cbet and took it down when you miss. So it is working as intended, not just always, like it's supposed to be.
Thank you very much
 
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Thu Jun 28, 2012, 01:51 AM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
I agree, I like your line as well here.

The only thing that you might explore further was the question should you be raising to isolate... you've given us the limited stats you had for one villain, but there are 4 limpers. How do you know you're going to isolate on one of them?

Don't get me wrong, I think raising for value is fine and preferred here, and your raise sizing is good imo, raise less is only going to bloat the pot out of position while keeping it multi-way as they'll all be tempted to call, and raising more (a lot more anyway, a little bit isn't bad) starts to value cut yourself too much. But just would caution you to have a plan for post flop play if you have a specific caller or two, or even if you get 3 or all 4. Against this guy HU I like c-betting for sure, and just give up to the jam. Like kazhaam said, don't be results oriented, if you think this line will be profitable over the long run (many thousands of trials) then you're in good shape, and I think it will be... although not every single one of them will result in an individual victory. Don't forget all the times you c-bet and he folds. As well as the times that you flop and ace and stack his A-rag. And the rare occasion the flop comes AQ3 and he has pocket 3's, it happens too.

Dave


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