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Reads - Sun Jul 08, 2012, 12:13 PM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
How many hands does it take to be able to say you have a read on someone?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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reads - Sun Jul 08, 2012, 12:41 PM
(#2)
DaiDark's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 51
if your in a mtt sng i think about 9 to 18 hands but i tend to wait a few more than 18 b4 i get a true read of what the players doing or up too in the game
 
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Sun Jul 08, 2012, 02:16 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,841
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Hey Grade!

It totally depends on the player. Some, I've gotten a read in a hand or two... others, it could take a few orbits. Live, I've had some reads on players as soon as they sat down.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Jul 08, 2012, 03:50 PM
(#4)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
Thanks for the answers so far,

I asked because i have started taking notes and classifing players into
passive
TAG (and NIT)
LAG

i have been waiting to get about 50 hands or so but looking at my own tables i was 25 / 25 / 100 on one and 4 / 0 on another.

So how much weight to give to the reads

(i know JWK could read me live before i sit as i have only played once and i'm sure it showed.)

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Jul 08, 2012, 06:23 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Hi Grade B.

This is not a question that can really be answered in any definite fashion.

A lot depends upon how many hands they've seen, and what has gotten to showdown. This implies a very loose player will tend to be "easier" to read than a tight one, but a "loose" opp might simply be a "nit" on a card rush, and a "tight" opp might simply be a maniac who is completely card dead at an aggro table.

The thing I do tend to look for BEFORE trying to sort out individual reads is an overall "table dynamic". This is something can usually be pegged decently within an orbit or 2, and once you've established whether the table generally will be more on the aggro or passive side, that helps in looking at the "mind set" of individual players you may find yourself against in a hand.

The looser and more passive a table is, the more likely semi strong, but marginal raising hands (like AJs in EP/MP) will be profitable, and value extraction with top pair/good kicker hands becomes easier, although you must "worry" a bit more when a variety of draws flops and get there.

The tighter and more aggro a table is, the less willing you should be to enter pots oop without a very strong hand. Set mining hands might be good values IP (if the $ is deep enough), but suited and connected cards will be slightly less desirable even with position unless the moeny is really deep.

If a table is more on the Tight/Passive side, using position to enter pots on a wider range of speculative hands for calls or raises can become profitable, because you will tend to get good draw prices, but set mining shots may not net you the implied odds you need if the opp's fold before putting chunks in for you.

If the table is loose and aggressive, the WEAKER your "strong hand" range is needs to be, and the harder it becomes to play draws and set mining hands well (unless the money is pretty uber deep, like 200BB effective+). You can also expect to see more 3bets pre on a wide variety of junk, so you should be aware of pot control issues if significant threats develop.

Once you have formed these base line thoughts off the dynamic you see at your table, THEN you can move on to more specific reads.

Hope it helps.

-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Sun Jul 08, 2012 at 06:26 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 08, 2012, 08:58 PM
(#6)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
I use what I call a three axis system.

Axis 1 is the loose-tight axis which is fairly straight forward as its name implies and is usually determined first.

Second is the passive-aggressive axis. This is the second axis by which I try to rate a table or person.

Lastly is the unskilled-skill axis. This one is takes longer to determine than the others. Sometimes I think of this one as straight forward-tricky.

As JDean says you should read the table first and then the individual players but most importantly you also have to rate your image at the table. This is crucial. Your opponents see only what you show, say and act. At the table your each of those define how you are perceived.

Skilled players are more fluid in there play as they adapt to changing table conditions so be careful wit htem

This system was not developed so much as it evolved as I began to think about how I determined which players to avoid and which to attack. I use bad, poor, average, fair & good rankings as that's about all the detail you need on each axis.

This works for me but I didn't start out this way and your mileage will definitely vary.
 
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Sun Jul 08, 2012, 09:18 PM
(#7)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
so ....what do i need to look for in reading the table?


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Jul 08, 2012, 10:08 PM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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I think that is what Joe is talking of, or at least a form of it.

Each mark I put in that graphic would represent your individual opp's. Each of those qualities has certain facets that they will typically have in their games, and each of those facets have a counter play you might make.

the idea behind reading the general table dynamic is that opp's will tend to adjust off their comfort zones if a certain dynamic is present. A "maniac" or 2 at the table could turn a nit into a more normal TAG player, or make him even nittier. A few nits at the table could turn a normal TAG into a more LAG type. See?

After that, you move on to the individual opp reads based on what you saw in the general dynamic, and assess what the general dynamic might do to the play style you are seeing.

After you;ve assessed all that stuff, you can feel you have a pretty STRONG read on your table, and a pretty good handle on how you might play ANY hand you choose to enter with, depending upon who your opponent(s) is/are.

See?


Double Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Jul 08, 2012, 10:20 PM
(#9)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
i do see what you are saying .....now i have to put it into practice ...ekk.

so would you say on a loose table i should play tight and on a tight table i should loosen up?

or is it back to the chalk board for grade b?


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Jul 09, 2012, 02:17 AM
(#10)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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"Any time your opponent(s) deviate form optimal poker, it is in your best interests to LOOSEN UP."
-Mike Caro

Now before you go to extremes with this, that does NOT mean you should maniacally splash chips along with the wildest players at your table!

Rather what it is is an expression of the fact that whenever opponents deviate from optimal, less expoiltable play styles, it opens up opportunities for you to exploit them.

Vs Tight/Passive players you call more pre flop, and bet more often on bluffs and semi bluffs if/when they check.

Vs loose/passive players you open your value range slightly, and value bet them larger.

Vs loose aggressive players, you open your value range slightly, and call more often on your somewhat marginal hands (like top pair 2nd or 3rd kicker), and only get into big 3 and 4bet wars with the ut or near nut hand.

Vs TAG players, the ones most likely to be playing optimal poker, you rely a lot more on position (altho that is important vs all types), and a strong value range.

these are thoughts versus general types, but there are a LOT of variations within types, such as a TAG who over plays top pairs, or a LAG who flats with gut shots but bets strong on 8 or 9 out draws. so there is no way to communicate ALL the various adjustments you might make, because all opp's have the ability to make different decisions on specific hands.

but these are some general rules you cn start with, and they allow your expereince to dictate things you might do to adjust even further for specifics.


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Mon Jul 09, 2012, 07:41 AM
(#11)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
Hi grade,
You can colour code your HUD in PT m8 manually, this makes it easy on the eye to classify a player, i then add a skill level to that player in the notes caddy i use *weak **thinker ***manipulator and **** the manipulator of manipulators the pros. I use a **** system its just my own little weird thing but when you add the 2 together it gives you a more complete picture.

example a TAG** open raises we call him on the BTN light it,s not so much about cards PREF
Now the flop comes A67 he does his standard cbet now we call and the turn comes a T now he does 1 of 2 things bets his top pair top kicker for value at which point we 3bet him or he checks and we raise big into him either way he is sitting there oop wondering what the hell we have got, we just hit our 2 pair or maybe even a straight and there is always that chance he holds KK QQ JJ and the flop was bad for him.As long as your table image is intact this is a good play to make. the how many hands you need question m8, cash after 3 to 4 rotations of the blinds for cash games to see if theres a profit to be made at that table.Hope i did not go too far off topic there m8.

Grade b i have made my own feeble attempt at a custom HUD for cash games m8, it's colour coded and has a bit more info than the pt4 default HUD if you want it m8 send me a pm, it wont mess your default Hud up, that will still be there and it might help start you off with your own custom HUD. When a players leak glows up like a Christmas tree it,s easy to spot.

GL m8
Paul.

Last edited by PokerPest72; Mon Jul 09, 2012 at 08:22 AM.. Reason: i support healthy eating i always order salad of my donner kebab.
 
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Mon Jul 09, 2012, 08:51 AM
(#12)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
"Any time your opponent(s) deviate form optimal poker, it is in your best interests to LOOSEN UP."
-Mike Caro

Now before you go to extremes with this, that does NOT mean you should maniacally splash chips along with the wildest players at your table! [SIZE="3"]Shame!![/SIZE]

Rather what it is is an expression of the fact that whenever opponents deviate from optimal, less expoiltable play styles, it opens up opportunities for you to exploit them.

Vs Tight/Passive players you call more pre flop, and bet more often on bluffs and semi bluffs if/when they check. Yep trying that

Vs loose/passive players you open your value range slightly, and value bet them larger.actually not so good at this

Vs loose aggressive players, you open your value range slightly, and call more often on your somewhat marginal hands ok at this but..........(like top pair 2nd or 3rd kicker), and only get into big 3 and 4bet wars with the ut or near nut hand.opps this one big leak so far for me

Vs TAG players, the ones most likely to be playing optimal poker, you rely a lot more on position (altho that is important vs all types), and a strong value range.have to be honest not sooo good at position play

these are thoughts versus general types, but there are a LOT of variations within types, such as a TAG who over plays top pairs, or a LAG who flats with gut shots but bets strong on 8 or 9 out draws. so there is no way to communicate ALL the various adjustments you might make, because all opp's have the ability to make different decisions on specific hands.

but these are some general rules you cn start with, and they allow your expereince to dictate things you might do to adjust even further for specifics.
Thanks Jdean lots to think about

thanks pokerpest i was using a custom hud based on Dave "The Landoliers" video but have decided to go back to a more feel / what i see at the tables rather than what the hud picks up.


for example in the 4k hands i played this week i ran leak analysis in PT4 and the biggest thing was calling on river in button and winning hand was too high at 100. so after playing with the tracker to get the hands for 15 minutes i have 1 example opps....

Grade b
Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Jul 09, 2012, 12:57 PM
(#13)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
was this the kind of thing you were thinking of Jdean..

the two players on either side of me where both LAG 4 betting ATo and calling 4 bet with KTo are 2 examples of their play. the reraiser in this case was normally a TAG but was more acrtive at this table.



normally for me this is anauto flod, as to me reraise = massive strengh and i'm so far out of position i can't see the shore.... but based on table read of everyone getting lighter thanks to the LAGS was able to take it away.

thanks JDean TrumpingJoe and pokerpest

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Jul 09, 2012, 08:54 PM
(#14)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
i do see what you are saying .....now i have to put it into practice ...ekk.

so would you say on a loose table i should play tight and on a tight table i should loosen up?

or is it back to the chalk board for grade b?
I typically try to be the loosest player at a very tight table and the tightest player at a loose table. On a loose aggro table I will call more often in position due to the better implied odds from multiple opponents in the hand. On a loose passive table I will be highly aggressive when in position.

On a tight passive table I will be aggressive in EP so I can win pots with a c-bet post flop and don't go past the turn without a made hand. On a tight aggressive player I am aggressive early where I am playing strong hands and very few randomizers. In late position I''l be play more of a trapping game with strong hands or use the Gap Theory against a aggro pre, passive post flop player.

Good decisions!
 
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Mon Jul 09, 2012, 10:57 PM
(#15)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
PS: I tend to play situationally aggressive from slightly loose to down right nitty if I have good aggros to my left.

As I said my first priority to assess the table. Then I look for those whom I feel are exploitable and those I should avoid. Then I refine that as I go along. Unless a player is a near maniac a one player change (out or in) does not upset a table read in a major way.

And this is not for shallow money play. If I'm short I rarely get in with a hand I am not committed to.

Also I am more loose and aggressive at short handed tables (6 or less). When short handed the likely of a normally medium strength hand being good is significantly increased. And make it short handed and shallow money and I usually come off as a maniac or at least I've been called one. The type of exception would be a four handed final table where I am third in chips with a survivable stack and an aggro big stack is on my left and a short stack is on my right, There is usually a good jump in payout from 4th to 3rd so I get patient.

I know these are a lot of generalities and there are a lot of exceptions. Recognizing those exception is a matter of experience (ie, finding out the hard way).

Once again: Good decisions!
 
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Tue Jul 10, 2012, 02:14 AM
(#16)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
Lots of poker wisdom in that reply, if only we could put this into practice.

Winning at poker is a lot tougher than it looks.

 
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Tue Jul 10, 2012, 09:23 AM
(#17)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
I agree JOY,

its great to have players who will share this information , some of it is slowly filtering into my skull.

SO thanks again guys and gals.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Jul 10, 2012, 06:51 PM
(#18)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPest72 View Post
Hi grade,
when you add the 2 together it gives you a more complete picture.
Hey, what a great idea ... I've always wished we could have two rings for color coding people - I guess that's a way to do it ... awesome idea!!
 
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Tue Jul 10, 2012, 07:26 PM
(#19)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Hey Grade b. Thanks for starting this thread. I am currently taking a break from poker as I analyze my play and motivations. I just wasn't giving it my best the past several months. This thread has help me crystallize my ideal thought process in my mind once again.

Good decisions ftw!
 
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Tue Jul 10, 2012, 08:02 PM
(#20)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
Joe,

your more than welcome if this helped you then that's great and I'm very pleased to hear it but believe me it helped me far more I'm sure.


Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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