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playing bottom set against reraise on flop v's 2 passive players

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playing bottom set against reraise on flop v's 2 passive players - Mon Jul 09, 2012, 01:12 PM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604


V2 was playing loose but passivelimping and calling raises with A*s, KTs ATo

Giles was also loose with no preflop raise in 20 hands but vpip of 38 called with JTs also in the blinds.

So when V2 bets and giles snap min raises they (in my eyes both have something, probly not the draw but could be pair plus draw i'm of course hoping its 2 pair or that they have top pair.

of course down side is QQ and KK could be in Giles range as he hasnt raised a hand yet (would he really not raise KK or QQ don't know ...

anyway what would you do here?


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Jul 09, 2012, 05:04 PM
(#2)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
The way I see it, at 2NL, someone is going for the flush and the other has AK, AQ, but no set. Min raise 12, the other doubles to 24, I would re-raise to 48 and try to eliminate the flush player.
 
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Tue Jul 10, 2012, 06:43 AM
(#3)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
well for what it is worth i cant raise there at the very most its a call to see how they react on the turn,
but i have a sneaky feeling your beat there grade b 1of them has jt the other one is playing for a flush draw, this is why i think its important not just to use HUD stats but also rate the players skill level joining the 2 together will help you get a solid read. If we apply the hud stats and then say to ourselves this player is a manipulator for instants we know we can go ahead and call there we dont want to raise and scare him out the pot but if we assume both these players are weak players then its a defo fold there unless were up against a weak tag who will call us down with top pair top kicker and so on. I know my advise ain't great but it works for me, well sometimes lol.

GOOD FOLD M8!

Paul.
 
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Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:21 PM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hi Grade B.

Vs the effective stack you set up an SPR of a bit over 6 when both villains called. As you are the BTN raiser, a donk lead on semi shallow money is not necessarily something you should live in fear of when you flop the hand you were playing for; bottom set. Obviously the min raise by a heretofore passive player is much more worrisome on a reasonably coordinated board, because a passive player is not apt to RAISE when he can call on a mediocre 1 pair hand. So...

The important factor to look at here (in my opinion) is whether or not the donk bettor is loose enough that the passive guy in the BB might RAISE on a wider range. If that is the case, then an immediate 3bet by you to get all the chips you can into the pot is not a hugely bad idea (full pot 3bet would be making it 84c to go, and would effectively commit the BB if he called). If he is likely oblivious to the donk lead’s tendencies, you still have a mess of hands you can beat in his range.

KQ, K9, Q9, and (marginally possible) Axd (especially AJd or ATd) could all be reasonable raising hands for even a passive player. Any of these MIGHT be strong enough hands for a LP player to raise the donk lead after calling a pre flop BTN raise, and the range probably gets wider the more loose/agro the donk bettor is, and the more the V2 will react to that..

Next, you must note that you only have about 20 hands on this guy. That really isn’t enough to know whether he will 3bet pre or flat with a big PP, nor is it enough to really know what he might do with a pretty strong draw (this is so because unless you saw him show those down, he may not have HAD them yet). So…

All in all, if you remove all big diamond draws, add in KK/QQ and JT to the total range, you have roughly 50% equity versus a pretty range on this flop. Flatting isn’t an option for you, as far too many scary cards might fall (either scary to you, or scary to a passive 2 pr hand to cost you value). You really probably should raise or fold in this spot, and I think I’d favor a raise to around 75c or 80c after hitting the hand I was playing for, and creating a reasonably low SPR going to the flop vs loose opps.

Hope it helps.

-JDean

P.S. Sandtrap, I really do not like the min 3bet here to 48c to go. In this spot that is merely going to bloat the pot MORE if a scare card comes for you (like a d or T), and if you ARE ahead those same scare cards might cost you the additional 30c or 45c you might make by 3betting more.

If you are going to decide, decide. Half measure are not really going to save you money in the long run, so you either have the equity you need to raise strong, or you should fold in my opinion, and here I'd lean toward the raise strong.

Pokerpest's call line perhaps has some validity (in my opinion) if the SPR going to the flop were more like 10 or 15. With an SPR of 6 created though, a flat is going to build a pot that is even HARDER to get away from, and may cost you value down the road if you are ahead.


Double Bracelet Winner
 
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Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:43 PM
(#5)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604


ty everyone for your thoughts on this one anyone who whats to know how i did play it there it is.

and other player held Q9o

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:10 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
hi again...

neither of the LP opps are folding their hands there, but had the 8d fell on the turn, your smaller raise to 50c to go could have cost you calls, or made you scared to extract max. that's why I'd have favored the larger raise right there on the flop.

could you REALLY muck a set with 1 to come had that 8d fallen?

I wouldn't, not after fattening the pot with the raise to 50c to go!



-JDean


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Fri Jul 13, 2012 at 10:12 PM..
 
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Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:02 PM
(#7)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
yes i do see what you are saying i think at the time after deciding i was in the hand it was then a case of quick now i have to bet (don't tell Dave The Langolier i didnt have my plan road mapped)

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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