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$1.10 NLHE(+1k) calling with JJ... dumb play or not?

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$1.10 NLHE(+1k) calling with JJ... dumb play or not? - Wed Jul 11, 2012, 05:20 PM
(#1)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
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This was 4 hands in, so no reads on villain. This play probably looks really dumb on my part. I have JJ, and call on the flop and turn...








Why did I do it? Well, I'm just following my instincts. I called the initial bet pre-flop thinking that he had a medium pair or a strong A. I really felt that it was a medium pair though, which, if I am right puts me ahead. I decided not to raise, but to see a flop, coz I don't want to be re-raised all-in pre-flop, and I am putting villain on some kind of strong hand.
The flop looks kind of scary for me, but I do have a backdoor broadway, and the only overcard to my pair is the K. I don't think this flop hit him. If he has a strong A then he has a least a gutshot to a broadway, but if he has a medium pair, which is what I put him on, then I am still ahead.
I call, and the turn doesn't really change much. His bet is larger and I should probably fold here? he may be semi-bluffing but I am facing another large bet on the river... I call because I just don't think he has it. I feel that he is trying to push me off my hand.
The river doesn't improve my hand. He bets 520, which totals about one third of my starting stack in the pot if I call. It's a big bet and it says that he has the goods. JJ is looking quite feeble now. Except that with a strong A he has a pair at best. If he doesn't have the K I am ahead. If he has a medium pocket pair then it is possible that he made a set.
Was it ever correct to call him down like this? Would making a hero call here ever be justified?


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~

Last edited by SothAAAA; Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 05:33 PM..
 
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Wed Jul 11, 2012, 08:26 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Hi SothAAAA!

With JJ, I would 3-bet to 300 preflop here. I don't want to flat becuase I expect to see an overcard on the flop and when one hits, I don't know if I'm ahead or not. If I get 4-bet preflop, then I'm going to muck my JJ here.

The flop brings an overcard and the opp bets just under 1/2 pot. Since a K is very much a part of their range, i'm going to muck the flop.

Calling down all the streets with 2nd pair is something that I do not want to do, as the overwhelming majority of the time, I won't have the best hand. If I thought that the opp was bluffing, then I want to raise, instead of calling down, as I want to take the lead in the hand, instead of being passive and calling.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Thu Jul 12, 2012, 06:00 AM
(#3)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
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hi John,
Pre-flop I could have raised, yes, but I prefer not to.
The reason I called on the flop is that I didn't think he had hit. I had a feeling that he was bluffing. It seems a bit tight to fold JJ to a single c-bet? Going with my read, if I'm ahead on the flop then the 5 on the turn don't change anything. I'm calling here to let him bluff again.
Raising on the flop or turn is a good suggestion and perhaps I should have.


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~
 
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Thu Jul 12, 2012, 09:55 AM
(#4)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by SothAAAA View Post
hi John,
Pre-flop I could have raised, yes, but I prefer not to.
The reason I called on the flop is that I didn't think he had hit. I had a feeling that he was bluffing. It seems a bit tight to fold JJ to a single c-bet? Going with my read, if I'm ahead on the flop then the 5 on the turn don't change anything. I'm calling here to let him bluff again.
Raising on the flop or turn is a good suggestion and perhaps I should have.
May I ask why you prefer not to?

What hands would you reraise Pre with (its ok you don't have to answer that.)

I only ask as I am working on Player reading at the moment and i would then guess i would be tagging you as "passive" this means my read on you is if you do have a "monster" ie AA or KK you will reraise me and your range is then down to your VPIP hard for me to know what you do have so much harder for me to bluff you which is bad for me.

But what is good for me is you are going to be calling me when i Value bet a good amount of the time and boom if i see a big reraise or you leading out i can fold all but my great made hands.

Now i'm not saying that IS you just how i'm currently playing Passive players.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by Grade b; Thu Jul 12, 2012 at 09:58 AM.. Reason: Because i reread it and saw that is was spelt worse than my normal drivel!!!!
 
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Thu Jul 12, 2012, 11:19 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SothAAAA View Post
It seems a bit tight to fold JJ to a single c-bet?
If there were no overs on the board, it's way too tight, but when the overcard hits, there are many Kx hands in the opp's range and one thing that I don't want to do in a tourney is to ever give a chip away when it's very easy for me to have the worst hand. If Kx was not a part of their range, then I agree that it would be a tight fold, but when there are a large number of hands that hit a K and are in their range, I don't want to chase a 2-outer, as basically ANY bet prices me out.

The reason that I want to raise is to get value from my JJ if the opp has a worse hand, but by their reaction to it, I will be able to find out much more information about the opp's range.... and it can also get me off the hand for less chips, if I need to muck, as the earlier that I raise, the smaller the raise, so I can lose less chips if I have the worst hand.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Jul 12, 2012, 12:57 PM
(#6)
folkstix's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
May I ask why you prefer not to?

What hands would you reraise Pre with (its ok you don't have to answer that.)

I only ask as I am working on Player reading at the moment and i would then guess i would be tagging you as "passive" this means my read on you is if you do have a "monster" ie AA or KK you will reraise me and your range is then down to your VPIP hard for me to know what you do have so much harder for me to bluff you which is bad for me.

But what is good for me is you are going to be calling me when i Value bet a good amount of the time and boom if i see a big reraise or you leading out i can fold all but my great made hands.

Now i'm not saying that IS you just how i'm currently playing Passive players.

Grade b
This. Waaaaay too passive. At least as seen here.
 
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Thu Jul 12, 2012, 01:10 PM
(#7)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
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hey Grade,
hm, interesting questions. You are right to assume that I am a passive player; in many ways I am, certainly in the early and middle stages. I am not going to be calling here though unless I really think I have the best hand. What I want to do is either flop a set, or trap with the JJ.
The reason I prefer not to re-raise pre-flop is because whilst I like my hand I am not overvaluing it and want to get to the flop as cheaply as possible, since this is part of my overall strategy. I want to invest as little as I can pre and play post-flop with most hands. Actually I am sort of treating this JJ the same as I would a smaller pair and hoping to flop a set. Except that I probably wouldn't call the pre raise with 22 or 33 etc.
I would raise some hands pre, but depending more on the situation rather than my holding. if I think it's a good spot then I will treat my suited A the same as QQ or 10Js. I wouldn't bet out with AA, unless I was shoving. Sometimes I will limp with AA even into a multi-way pot. It would be a bit of a givaway if I suddenly raised huge lol. It's going to be tricky for you to ever be certain of what I'm holding. Playing this style means that sometimes I am going to lose with AA on the board, but I am prepared to accept that. If the hand plays well I can still shove on the flop, turn, or river when appropriate.
Making large bets pre is not part of my early and middle stage strategy.
Obviously my read throughout this hand could be way off: maybe he has the nuts the whole way. I can't be certain, but I am willing to follow my instincts. The reason I call here with JJ on the flop and turn is because my read is that my opp did not hit the flop and hasn't improved his hand. His bet on the blank on the turn possibly confirms this as it is still quite small. I think he would try and take the pot down here if he had a real hand. The river card makes a possible straight draw: it's possible he could have 9Js, but I am considering that to be the bottom end of his range. My feeling is that he has 77, 88 etc... so it is quite possible that he makes a set on the river. Otherwise I think he has AQ, AJ, A10... or AK, A9s as outside possibilities. If he really did have AK I think he would have raised more pre, and have bet more flop and turn.
I think it is more likely that he missed the flop and the turn, and that is the reason I call. If his bet on the turn had been much bigger, 3 or 4x, then I would probably fold here.
If I do fold I have invested less than I would have by raising 3x pre. But, I have gotten to see both the flop and the turn. I might even have made the nuts by this point.
I don't think I am a passive player as you describe- and your description matches my experience with that type- but I am happy to give this impression ontable. I'm a stealthy type. I guess I like to counter-play my opps.
On the final table, depending on my stacksize, I can be ruthless and very aggressive.


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~

Last edited by SothAAAA; Thu Jul 12, 2012 at 01:25 PM..
 
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Thu Jul 12, 2012, 01:22 PM
(#8)
folkstix's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by SothAAAA View Post
hey Grade,
hm, interesting questions. You are right to assume that I am a passive player; in many ways I am, certainly in the early and middle stages. I am not going to be calling here though unless I really think I have the best hand. What I want to do is either flop a set, or trap with the JJ.
The reason I prefer not to re-raise pre-flop is because whilst I like my hand I am not overvaluing it and want to get to the flop as cheaply as possible, since this is part of my overall strategy. I want to invest as little as I can pre and play post-flop with most hands. Actually I am sort of treating this JJ the same as I would a smaller pair and hoping to flop a set. Except that I probably wouldn't call the pre raise with 22 or 33 etc.
I would raise some hands pre, but depending more on the situation rather than my holding. if I think it's a good spot then I will treat my suited A the same as QQ or 10Js. I wouldn't bet out with AA, unless I was shoving. Sometimes I will limp with AA even into a multi-way pot. It would be a bit of a givaway if I suddenly raised huge lol. It's going to be tricky for you to ever be certain of what I'm holding. Playing this style means that sometimes I am going to lose with AA on the board, but I am prepared to accept that. If the hand plays well I can still shove on the flop, turn, or river when appropriate.
Making large bets pre is not part of my early and middle stage strategy.
Obviously my read throughout this hand could be way off: maybe he has the nuts the whole way. I can't be certain, but I am willing to follow my instincts. The reason I call here with JJ on the flop and turn is because my read is that my opp did not hit the flop and hasn't improved his hand. His bet on the blank on the turn possibly confirms this as it is still quite small. I think he would try and take the pot down here if he had a real hand. The river card makes a possible straight draw: it's possible he could have 9Js, but I am considering that to be the bottom end of his range. My feeling is that he has 77, 88 etc... so it is quite possible that he makes a set on the river. Otherwise I think he has AQ, AJ, A10... or AK, A9s as outside possibilities. If he really did have AK I think he would have raised more pre, and have bet more flop and turn.
I think it is more likely that he missed the flop and the turn, and that is the reason I call. If his bet on the turn had been much bigger, 3 or 4x, then I would almost definitely fold.
If I do fold I have invested less than I would have by raising 3x pre. But, I have gotten to see both the flop and the turn. I might even have made the nuts by this point.
Unless you are really good at post-flop play and reading players hands with little information I would try playing a more TAG style myself but that's just me. If you play that style pre-flop then you don't have to worry about slow playing your pocket aces as much because people won't be able to range you so easily which is what grade b was talking about. This is preferable as pocket aces are going to play far better if you can get them heads up.

In regards to his preflop raise, if I'm not mistaken he raised 5x I think? That's a pretty large raise based on the standard 3x most people follow. Had you 3-bet him you most likely would have gone 3x his raise which would have made it 300 (again, if I remember correctly) which is exactly what you ended up putting in anyway I think (**Edit: actually you committed 360 in the hand calling the turn which is 20% more). The only difference is that by 3-betting you would have a better idea of where you stood prior to the flop, you may have been able to take it down pre-flop, and you may have been able to even c-bet the flop and push out Ax hands.

The line you took seems like it opens you up to make a lot more mistakes and to leak a lot of unnecessary chips. But that's just my opinion. I could be completely wrong.

And usually am...

Last edited by folkstix; Thu Jul 12, 2012 at 01:25 PM..
 
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Thu Jul 12, 2012, 01:36 PM
(#9)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 101
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Villain's sizing is a little off, I can see why you were suckered into calling turn. Personally, I think if you flat jacks here you HAVE to call the flop as villain will probably cbet a lot of his bluffs/draws and your hand is unrepresented. I would have felt inclined to call the turn as well based on his weak sizing, though I think ultimately you probably have to find a fold unless you know he's the type that just won't stop barreling on any draw/bluff.

I'm not a tourney whiz by any means but this looks fairly early on? I don't think flatting jacks is a horrible play if as you say you don't want to play for stacks. If villain 4bs you can't flat so the value of your hand is wasted (again, using the logic that you don't want to play for stacks). That said you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what the villain can and can't have based on not much in particular :p You discount AK as part of his range citing his raise size, but the guy is raising 5x under the gun! To me, that screams strength - not saying he holds AK, but he easily could!

John, I don't claim to be as knowledgable as you guys - but if you think this guy is bluffing then surely the last thing you want to do is raise him? If he's bluffing you want him to continue and call him down for value (I'm not saying this is the spot to do it necessarily). If you raise, he's going to fold almost all his bluffs and continue with a range that has you smashed to bits. Or, heaven forbid he re-bluffs, you're in a gross spot and have to muck it regardless.

All this said, I'm 3 betting pre to around 270 and folding to a 4th bet (readless, anyway).

Oh, and readless a river call is never justifiable - your jacks are catching bluffs and you don't know if the villain is even capable of bluffing! Should be a fold on turn as played but you can never call river imo!

Last edited by AceKingBlows; Thu Jul 12, 2012 at 01:42 PM..
 
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Thu Jul 12, 2012, 01:52 PM
(#10)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
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hi John,


Yes, I think that is a good strategy. My intention is the same, not to give away my chips lightly, although my approach might differ sometimes. True, he could well have AK, KQ, even KJ. If I am putting him on a K then I am behind and I will fold if my hand hasn't improved.
It all depends on how I feel about the hand. My instincts tell me that he doesn't have a K. If I feel that he has hit the K then I will fold on the flop. In this case though, even if I think he hit the K, I would most times call the 100 on the flop. With this hand I think it's cheap enough to call. There is a good chance that's a c-bet, and my hand could improve on the turn. I can re-evaluate on the turn.
I will probably play it slightly differently each time. To take this line of play every time would be very bad play, and would lose very quickly. It's entirely down to my feeling that his hand has not improved.
It is a risky strategy, because I could be wrong. Especially with an unfamiliar opp. In this instance the way the turn goes, I think I am ahead, and that's why I call. I could raise and maybe he might fold, but now I think he is semi-bluffing and I am going to see if he fires again on the river.
I appreciate the way you would play the hand would be towards the math side of things. That aspect of the game is part of what makes poker so fascinating, but I guess it isn't so much of a part of my game.


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~

Last edited by SothAAAA; Thu Jul 12, 2012 at 02:03 PM..
 
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Thu Jul 12, 2012, 02:17 PM
(#11)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 101
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I'm Rhys btw, not John
 
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Thu Jul 12, 2012, 02:19 PM
(#12)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
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hi Folkstix,
Thanks for your response. You're not wrong. Your suggestions and observations are sound. Sometimes I will play AA like that pre-flop, although I usually play it more passive. It also depends on the table dynamic, of course.
I wouldn't play this hand like this every time. If I fold on the river it is 360, but if I call the flop and fold after seeing the turn then it has only cost me 200.
I am still very much working on my game so I'm not good at post-flop play yet, but that's the style I like to play rather than aggressive pre-flop play. I concede it is a difficult and risky way to play but with practice I will improve.
I have experimented with agg pre style but it just doesn't come naturally for me and I am not very good at it. Aggression is the weakest part of my game so I try to get around that by playing post.
I never said I folded the river. I called his 520 bet, and he had AQ.


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~

Last edited by SothAAAA; Thu Jul 12, 2012 at 03:12 PM..
 
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Thu Jul 12, 2012, 02:23 PM
(#13)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
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hi,
that was a reply to John (JWK)
I am just about to reply to yours now lol
Soth


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~
 
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Thu Jul 12, 2012, 02:30 PM
(#14)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
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hi Rhys,

Yes, I agree that he is betting the flop as a c-bet almost every time, and I should call. I think your overall assessment of the situation is pretty much spot on.
Yes a raise of 100pre may seem a lot 4 hands in, but it is actually standard in these type of tourneys. It's a strong bet, but AK, AA, KK, QQ, are opening for much more usually, if not all-in. That's why I don't think he has a premium hand. But still, AK is a likely part of his range here, for sure.
I am not saying that I would make this exact play each time with this situation, but the way the hand develops I am inclined to think I have the best hand. Yes, without reads it would be a bad call. I guess also that because I am more dependant on playing post rather than pre then I can play the hand a little further as my payoffs when I am correct should outweigh my losses.


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~

Last edited by SothAAAA; Thu Jul 12, 2012 at 03:03 PM..
 

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