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77 call or raise ?

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77 call or raise ? - Sun Jul 15, 2012, 12:17 AM
(#1)
fp_boss77's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Hi guys !
This is a $0.25 45-men.
I have a sense that I should have raised this hand, but it would be hard to continue if I did not hit a set. what u guys think ?
But raising 3x the BB would be 60, and this weak players would certainly call with pretty much any 2 cards.


Thanks
 
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Sun Jul 15, 2012, 02:25 AM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,824
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi fp_boss77!

With any hand at any level, if I'm going to be the first one into a hand, I'm going to make a standard open raise. At this level it is to raise to 3BB+1BB for each limper, so I'll raise to 60. Many players try to open-limp with small/mid pairs and it can be a very easy tell for someone to pick up on.

I totally miss the flop and since it's the first level and players can stay with anything, I dont' know whether or not I'm ahead. Due to this, especially without being the last preflop raiser, I'm checking the flop. If I had raised preflop, then I could make a 1/2 pot c-bet here, but not without knowing I was ahead and no preflop raise. When I check, if the button bets.. I'm folding.

On the turn, if I was going to bet, it would be 1/2 pot again. Anything less gives the opp the correct odds to draw to beat me if by some chance I am ahead.... however, since the opp called the flop bet, I'm most likely behind, so I'm checking here and folding to any bet by the opp.

Same on the river, since I missed and am most likely behind, I'll check and fold to any bet by the opp. If I did bet, it would be another 1/2 pot bet.

When playing in these, especially at the earlier levels, I do not want to be bluffing or betting when I'm not sure that I have the best hand, as the opps will just keep calling and calling. I want to wait until I know that I have the best hand and then I want to value bet the opps to get chips off of them.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
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Sun Jul 15, 2012, 09:44 AM
(#3)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Hi FP boss,

First level unless i have fallen on to a table of ultra tight players i'm probably letting 77 go unless i have good reads on the players on the table with me. Then as JWK says I'm Raising as i'm the first to act.

wierdly had 4 guys just called the 20 then i may have called and mucked had i of wiffed the flop.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Jul 15, 2012, 12:34 PM
(#4)
fp_boss77's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks for the help guys.

Yeah, I have my doubts. Cuz folding the 77 here sounded too tight for me cuz everyone else has folded. But at the same time sounded a little to loose playing 77 early in the tournament. So I decided to limp ( stupid decision I gues lol ). But in the end, I think I should've gone for a raise, and a C-bet on that flop.
 
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Sun Jul 15, 2012, 12:44 PM
(#5)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
BronzeStar
hi,
yes you could have raised pre, but limping is quite standard in these 45seats, as I'm sure you know. With 77 I am going to be thinking about just hitting a set or checking the board down if I miss. I wouldn't open the betting on this board. True, maybe everyone will fold, but getting a call is likely, unless you are willing to make a large bet- but then if you are called it might be by a much better hand than yours. Instead I would check to see what the opps are doing. 77 is not strong here, but if it checks around then maybe I will make a set on the turn. If there is any kind of large bet then I would fold. I might call a min bet, but hoping to hit a 2out doesn't really justify my putting any more chips in this pot.


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~
 
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Sun Jul 15, 2012, 12:52 PM
(#6)
RobinQQQ's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 115
Hi boss,
personally I'd raise pre. I might pick up the blinds (no big deal I know) and if I do hit a set it makes it even harder to spot.

On the flop once you get called you're beaten nine times out of ten, time to shut down. The turn card is about as bad as it gets now you beat nothing that could've called you on the flop and (sorry to say it mate) your turn and River bets look weak. I doubt you would've got that Jack to fold anyway but the size of your bets puts no pressure on. I would be check folding here.

Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh and I'm no expert player so no doubt others would disagree.

Rob.

Last edited by RobinQQQ; Sun Jul 15, 2012 at 12:55 PM.. Reason: typo
 
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Sun Jul 15, 2012, 07:13 PM
(#7)
Jonny9691's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 71
You need pot odds to set mine, and there are no limpers!
and with only 3 players behind It seems wrong not to raise,
just my humble opinion
gl
 
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Sun Jul 15, 2012, 08:15 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
fp your main dilemma here seems to be as to whether or not you should play the 77 at all in this spot and if so HOW you should play it pre-flop.

Now I'm a firm believer that playing very nitty during the first 1-3 or 1-4 blind levels in these .25 45 mans is the way to go. But that does not mean that we have to be folding everything but AA,KK,QQ and AK either.

First thing here is position. We have it against anyone who can still enter the pot except the button. That's a plus.

Second thing is our holdings. We DO have a hand here,77 is a perfectly respectable hand to be playing from LP into an unopened pot.

Third thing is our reads of the opps and our image. You haven't given us any info here and at this early stage of the tourney unless you have previous history with some of the other players any such info will be very tenuous anyway. (This is where note-taking in these becomes important---you will see a lot of the same players over and over in these. For example the villain here I hope you noted them as being capable of paying off 3 streets of betting with top pair/weak kicker. You can use info like that down the line to extract big chips off of players who do things like this IF you have the solid read on it and note it.)

Fourth thing is effective stack sizes. Not an issue here as everyone is on a fairly similar stack at this stage of the tourney and no one is so pumped up that they can just cavalierly call a raise or so short that they may be looking to get their chips in.

Fifth thing is where are we in the tourney. Well it's early and we're looking to chip up but not at the expense of being sloppy with our chips and leaking some of them off as they will be needed later,for equity and to maximize the potential gain when the inevitable spots come where our chips will be going in the middle.

So to review on considerations #1 and 2 it's all systems go for us---we have position and we have a real hand.

Consideration #3---our table image and any reads we have is non-applicable here it would seem so no input for that one.

Same with consideration #4---stack sizes are all relatively the same so no reason to back off because of them.

Consideration #5--it's early and we should be selective. Well this is a good spot to play within the selectivity parameters---it's an unopened pot,we have good position (great if the button folds) and we probably have the best hand right now.

So this is a hand we want to play.

Now comes the HOW do we play it---and this to me is the most important part here as what you did here you need to STOP. Immediately.

You do not want to open limp pots. Ever. It's a leak,pure and simple.

Yes for players of more skill,who are paying close attention to things that you do,open limping every once in a great while,just as a "change-up play" can be OK. But you are not up against players who you need to be especially tricky against at this level. Far from it.

Would you open limp AA here? How about KK,QQ,JJ,AK or 1010?

I'm betting your answer is no to all of those hands.

But you would limp 77 here.

That's a tell and when you base how you enter a pot on the quality of your holdings it's a rudimentary enough tell that even marginal players can pick up on it if they're paying any attention at all. There are enough players at even this level who will pick up on that so as to make it cost you. It makes you hand range be somewhat naked if you do this fp---they can put you on a range like "well if he open raises he has 99+,AQ+,A9s+ and KQs and if he limps he has 22+,A8+,any other suited A,any broadway couplets and any suited connector 87 or better".

Something along those lines. Believe me if I were to catch someone doing this---changing up how they open a hand by the quality of their holdings I'm going to pay very close attention to that player to get an idea of the top and bottom of the ranges that they will raise or limp with and then I'm going to punish them with that information.

Second reason not to open limp should be readily evident by what happened here---you limped and allowed the button to come along cheap with a random,crappy holding like J2o and who ended up getting paid? If he is still willing to call a 3x raise with a hand like this then you have a much more solid read on what "caliber" of player this is for later reference. He calls 3x pre with J2o,even from the button,and he's a window-licking drooler,pure and simple.

Third reason ties into the info part above---we can more accurately range players as to what kind of hands they'll be willing to play by the hands that they'll call raises with,rather than the hands they'll just limp along with. Serial chain limping by the table is an infectious disease at these levels---as symptom of the "button...shiny....click" mentality. Raise and you narrow their range (or you should,the truly "special" players you just have to accept that they could be dealt a Green #5 UNO card and the rules card and they would merrily follow along...).limp and you don't.

Fourth reason and maybe the best of all---betting gives you another way to win pots besides showing down the best hand. You and Jonny and the rest have all played enough of these by now to know that you have to showdown best in these enough,MORE than enough,as it is. Calling stations abound. Well be consistent in showing that you WILL raise your quality holdings and show down holding them enough and you'll start to pick up more unchallenged pots. And you need to do that to be consistent in these.

Limping the only way you win here is to showdown as the best hand and with 3 other players seeing the flop the odds of 77 showing down best are far from good.

Remember---keep position,reads,your image and stack sizes in mind along with the quality of your hand and if after all that it's good enough to play then it's good enough to RAISE.

Good luck,better decisions.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Sun Jul 15, 2012 at 08:26 PM..
 
Old
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Sun Jul 15, 2012, 09:15 PM
(#9)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
Hi Fp,

Your question is to raise or not to raise?

It's open to you in the cut-off you raise your 7's with 3bb's 60 then cbet around 50% of the pot then take it from there.

Now, in here you just limp your 77 and didn't hit your set. You try to bet the flop but your opp called you then it's time to give up the hand

On the flop you bet 60 but on the turn your bet is only 40 and the pot is already 200. If you can't bet at least 50% of the pot just give up on the hand to minimize the loss you will get.
 
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Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:28 AM
(#10)
fp_boss77's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks everyone !

There are a lot of leaks on this play lol. I'll try not to do them again.

GL at the tables
 

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