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25c45seat missed value?

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25c45seat missed value? - Mon Jul 16, 2012, 04:34 PM
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This is the ft and both the villains have been very agg throughout the tourney. Obviously I was concerned about the A of S, but it was the only card that I would be losing to. I don't want to bust out here but my play looks passive. Should I have been trying for max value? or was it correct to be careful here?




I think the button is definitely shoving if he has the nuts on the river. If it were just the two of us in the hand I would raise him all-in once I make my flush. I am more worried about the SB... he is being quite passive and I wonder if he is trapping with the A? Turns out he wasn't.


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~

Last edited by SothAAAA; Mon Jul 16, 2012 at 06:13 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 16, 2012, 08:01 PM
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Hi SothAAAA!

With K8o from the BB, I'm more than happy to see the flop for free. I don't have a hand that is worth raising with and I'm not folding since I can see the flop for free.

The flop brings two broadway cards and are all spades. I have the K of spades, but with 2 opps in the pot that could have easily hit a part of the board, most likely, I'm behind as of now. When the first opp checks, since the read on both opps is that they are playing aggresive, I'm checking here. The last thing that I want to have happen is for the aggro opp on the button to raise me.... as I'll be priced out of drawing at my outs and be forced to muck.

The same on the turn. The turn does not help me at all, so I want to check and hope that I hit something on the river. Luckily for me, both opps check too (which is VERY passive for this type of board and 100% out of character for an aggressive read.... and any reaction that is totally out of character is an immediate red flag for me!).

The river brings another spade, giving me the 2nd nut flush. However, there is the possibility of the A of spades and also a full house being out there since the board is paired. I definitely would not discount the A being out there too... as the opps are playing out of character, which means that one could be trying to trap with it.
The opp that has been very passive the entire hand now leads out for a very small bet.... less than 1/6 of the pot. That bet size from an aggro opp (they have been VERY passive in this hand)... just doesn't look right. It seems like they WANT a raise, that they can shove over. I also have to worry about the opp on the button. Due to this, instead of raising here, I want to call and get to showdown. My hand has showdown value and also, by calling, I get the information on what type of cards the opp is really playing... that I can use against them from now on.
The button, now min-raises. Once again, this just doesn't look right at all, from an aggro player. I would expect an aggro to be raising about the size of the pot, and doing so whether they hit a hand or not. It also should be from some sort of made hand, as the raise is way, way too small for a bluff, as an opp that hit any part of the board is priced in to call it.
When the SB calls, I'm calling and hoping not to see the ace of spades here.

When I see the button's J8o, I'm totally re-evaluating the reads on these two opponents based on this hand. Neither one of them acted aggressive in any way at all in the hand. They both acted as loose/passive calling stations. If they are stations, then I need to go about playing them totally different than I would if they were acting aggressively.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Mon Jul 16, 2012, 08:56 PM
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Thanks John. I found that a really interesting evaluation.
First off, yes, they were both agg throughout. The SB had shut down a bit since we made the ft, and I guess he was protecting his stack looking to get heads-up. Perhaps my read of them as both loose-agg is a bit off, but I'm not sure how else to label them. I had played a lot of hands with both and they were usually raising and re-raising me.
The way you describe the thought process is pretty much spot on. I was confused. It didn't make sense the way the betting was going, and that's why I felt that the A was hidden somewhere. If I had raised at the end after the button's min-re-raise I thought the SB was going to shove over the top.
I think my initial opening min bet was a bit rubbish.
Hearing that you would also have checked the turn and called the river makes me feel a bit better about my play. It was a strange hand and left me feeling a bit unsettled.


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~
 
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Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:01 PM
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ah, just an afterthought... the button almost always bets the flop in every pot that he is involved in, trying to steal it. That was possibly why I opened there (can't entirely remember) but having decided to bet I think I should have bet a bit more.


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~
 
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Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SothAAAA View Post
ah, just an afterthought... the button almost always bets the flop in every pot that he is involved in, trying to steal it. That was possibly why I opened there (can't entirely remember) but having decided to bet I think I should have bet a bit more.
The reason I said to check the flop... if the button would steal often, then if you bet here and they raise big... I gotta fold and they get even more chips.

John (JWK24)


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Tue Jul 17, 2012, 03:06 AM
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Yes I would have had to fold to a large raise.
Or shoved


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~
 
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Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SothAAAA View Post
Yes I would have had to fold to a large raise.
Or shoved
A shove here would be a -EV play... woudln't even consider it.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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