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Auto shove.

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Auto shove. - Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:38 PM
(#1)
RobinQQQ's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 115
$1.50 STT SNG. I'd been playing pretty tight, this was only the second hand I'd played. I suspect that most of you will tell me that this is an Auto shove but given the action and how tight the four bettor has been I wonder if anyone could've folded here.


Last edited by RobinQQQ; Mon Jul 16, 2012 at 06:48 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:43 PM
(#2)
RobinQQQ's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 115
Just in case you're interested.

 
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Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:44 PM
(#3)
RobinQQQ's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 115
sorry trying to delete duplicate post.

Last edited by RobinQQQ; Mon Jul 16, 2012 at 06:48 PM.. Reason: duplicate
 
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Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:49 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
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Hi Rob!

With KK, I want to make a standard open raise in order to help conceal the strength of my hand. For this level, my std open is to 3BB +1BB for each limper, so I'll raise to 150.
I get two callers, then a raise to the size of the pot. With KK here, I want to isolate to one opp and since a normal raise (3X their bet) would be well over 1/2 my stack, I'm going to 4-bet shove with KK here.
The opp is playing 5VPIP and when I put that into pokerstove, my KK has 68.9% equity against that range. Even if the opp tightens their range to top 2.5%, I still have 65% equity.

Since against their range, I have much more equity than the % that I put into the pot... I'm shoving here every single time. This is a great example of why bankroll management is so important, as I want to be in these high +EV situations whenever possible... without having to worry about the % of the time that I lose.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Jul 17, 2012, 04:40 AM
(#5)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
BronzeStar
hi Robin,
Isn't this just 'one of those hands that plays itself'? My view is that KK is a bit vulnerable and it needs total commitment behind it; you have to be prepared to back it up with your entire stack. Not that I would never see a flop with KK, but I would always be willing to shove with them when I had to. 75% of the time KK is going to repay your belief and commitment by taking down the pot, often doubling you up. Seems a fair trade.
And even when you run into AA it's not always over...


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~
 
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Tue Jul 17, 2012, 07:00 AM
(#6)
RobinQQQ's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 115
Yep Soth it probably is one of those hands. The reason I put it up is that I had a nasty feeling he had Aces even as I shoved. I couldn't see what else such a tight player would be 4betting with. OK maybe Queens but I might have considered folding Queens in his shoes. I don't think he was ever doing this with AK. It just led me to think, once the game was over, was it actually possible to fold here? Afterall its early enough in the game that sheer survial has to be the priority.
I guess not.
Rob.
 
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Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:28 AM
(#7)
Jonny9691's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 71
Can I just say that there is something I like about this situation that's not quite been mentioned, when you raise the worst possible but quite typical thing happens, they start a calling train, there is nothing you can do to stop this, so when the 4bet comes im relieved and shove wanting my chips in against hopefully 1 opp and some dead money
Gl
 
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Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:33 AM
(#8)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
BronzeStar
hi Robin,
If you really feel that he has AA then yes, why not fold? I don't change what I said about commitment to KK, but every hand can be beaten. I agree that tourney survival is usually a priority. Playing KK regardless of your read here could easily have busted you, and I think you raise a good point. The thing that would probably put me off mucking here is that I have already invested in the pot and there is quite a bit of $ out there. (see previous comment)
But this is just one hand, right? If you muck and move on to the next you are not in bad shape to continue in the tourney. Phil Hellmuth said 'it is better to sometimes fold the winning hand, than to keep calling with the losing hand.' Is that applicable here?
Actually the same situation came up for me recently. I had been playing really tight in this particular tourney... the previous hand I had KK, shove re-raised, got called, and won the pot. The very next hand, in the SB, I got KK again. Everyone had folded. I made a small raise and the BB re-popped it. He knew that I had a decent hand because I raised him, which I hadn't been doing often. He was also playing tight, and my read was that he wanted me to shove over the top... that must mean he has AA, right? I just didn't feel that I could fold KK and got busted.
Being able to fold in such spots would be world class play.


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~
 
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Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:22 PM
(#9)
alanj28's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 138
as its still 8 handed im limping in to this pot in this spot almost always ready to call a raise and maybe lay down the hand to an all in but thats playing at my tightist. it will be almost certain that one of the callers or raisers are holding an ace so any ace on the board im laying the hand down also. most of the time tho its all going in with these monsters and yep nice suckout aways nice when your on the right side of it


 
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Tue Jul 17, 2012, 07:56 PM
(#10)
RobinQQQ's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 115
Thanks for the feed back guys.

Soth I guess in answer to your question I'm just not good enough to lay down this hand but I think in a similar situation I might give it more thought next time. alan makes a good point too. It would be just like one of the loose players in the pot to call with a raggy Ace and spike one on the River.

I think the answer is that it is possible to lay down this kind of hand in exceptonal circumstances.

:-)

Rob.

Last edited by RobinQQQ; Tue Jul 17, 2012 at 07:57 PM.. Reason: typo
 
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Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:33 AM
(#11)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
BronzeStar
hi Rob,
Yes it is a very difficult laydown. Like you say he could play QQ in exactly the same way. It makes it so tricky. Also true that any callers likely have an A.
That is the thing with shoving isn't it? At best your hand is 4-1 ahead. Even then it's a loss 1 in 5. In cash games I think it makes great sense to always shove because the math is well in favour. But in tourneys where it is sudden death it is so risky to ever flip for your entire stack. It's pretty difficult to avoid having to do so.
It's a problem that I am constantly considering and wondering what is the best way to deal with. After this discussion I will also think about the possibility of laying down my strong pairs rather than shoving, calling a shove.
The trouble with that is that they can be tricky to play multi-handed if you get to the flop. Without improving they probably lose to overpairs on the board. Even when ahead it can be difficult to extract value.


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~
 

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