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25c/45S&G As

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25c/45S&G As - Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:11 AM
(#1)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
BronzeStar
This is from a S&G that I just played. It's a response to the post from Jonny about his A10s and the discussion that followed.







I limped in coz I don't want to invest too many chips in this hand without seeing the flop first, coz if my hand misses it is not strong. Also I want as many opps in the hand as possible coz if I do make my flush then I want to get max value.
Having hit my A and the flush draw I open the betting with 3BB. I want to start building a pot but I don't want to price anyone out. I am hoping to get a couple of calls. I think this bet looks like I have made a pair. If the flush comes in on later streets it is quite disguised. So far I have invested only 4BBs so I can still get away if I have to.
On the turn I make the nuts. I bet 3BB again. It is meant to look weak, as though my hand has not improved. I want my opps to think that I just have a pair so they have a good chance to win the pot.
On the river I bet for a little bit of value. The villains have bought my story and both think they have a good shot at winning this pot. I get the best possible result with the first villain shoving.


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~
 
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Wed Jul 18, 2012, 01:22 AM
(#2)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Hi Soth,

Overall I think this is well played (you do get fortunate that the big stack was a stone spewtard,how can he give NEITHER of you credit for a club?...) but there is one thing that I'm having a problem with...

You state that you limped in because you were adverse to investing too many chips in this hand without seeing a flop first because it wasn't a strong hand.

To me this is a leak that is going to cost you more long term than any chips lost when someone may come over top of an open raise by you.

Here's why...

If you are varying how you open a pot (limp or raise and if raise the size of the raise) according to how strong you perceive your hand to be then some players,even at these levels,are going to make note of this. And if they make note of it they can start to range you holdings pre-flop by your actions. And if they can do this they can exploit you with the information.

Making your raises to open a pot (I never advice open limping from any position except as the odd "change-up" play ) standard will keep the strength of your hands hidden and keep your opponents guessing.

If you want to put a little variety into your bet sizing to open pots then do it by position.

Also open limping is you entering a pot and by your own actions limiting the ways in which you can win the hand. C-betting after an open limp will never be seen as strong as c-betting off a raise.

Remember your actions,all of them,at the table are always telling a story. If you put inconsistencies into the plot line sharper players will note it and look for those inconsistencies to pop up again and they'll use it against you.

Good luck/better decisions.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Wed Jul 18, 2012 at 01:25 AM..
 
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Wed Jul 18, 2012, 05:24 AM
(#3)
Jonny9691's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 71
Hey soth,
great result (what muppets)
But I think that you and I have to do better!!
All though my hand was a different in that I was in the sb (getting good pot odds)
I admit that I am capable of limping like this with suited A's and used to with K's (spewy lol)
But in your example I find it easier to see! First in pot-what to play the hand=RAISE
this is what trainers tell us
Come on we can do it, no more limping

Gl
 
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Building the pot - Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:54 AM
(#4)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by SothAAAA View Post
I limped in coz I don't want to invest too many chips in this hand without seeing the flop first, coz if my hand misses it is not strong. Also I want as many opps in the hand as possible coz if I do make my flush then I want to get max value.
Having hit my A and the flush draw I open the betting with 3BB. I want to start building a pot but I don't want to price anyone out. I am hoping to get a couple of calls. I think this bet looks like I have made a pair. If the flush comes in on later streets it is quite disguised. So far I have invested only 4BBs so I can still get away if I have to.
On the turn I make the nuts. I bet 3BB again. It is meant to look weak, as though my hand has not improved. I want my opps to think that I just have a pair so they have a good chance to win the pot.
On the river I bet for a little bit of value. The villains have bought my story and both think they have a good shot at winning this pot. I get the best possible result with the first villain shoving.
The way this hand plays will vary according to the table dynamics. If the players behind are passive players, you might PFR to take the initiative, limp and hope for a multi-way pot, or fold. If the players behind were mixed or aggressive, you might open/limp/fold, open/limp/call, or fold. In both cases it would depend on how you perceive their post-flop play, and their stacks, as well as yours. By limp/calling you may be able to stack an aggressive spewtard. But, only if his stack is big enough for you to call for implied odds. There are still a lot of factors which will determine if you limp/call, or limp/fold; most importantly, who raised, who’s left in the pot, their stack sizes, and their post-flop skills (or lack of).

45 Man MTT (22-26 players left) – 7 Payouts – 67BB Stack – Stacks Behind, 33; 141; 49; 21 – No Reads Given

This hand is definitely a speculative hand, and if played, has to be played carefully. In retrospect, it seems this is a loose/passive table.

PF: Cautious line taken, trying to see a cheap flop vs. micro stake players is ok. Ends up in a multi-way pot, like hero expected.

Flop: Good flop for our hand, but a flop that could also get us in trouble. The bet sizing here is critical; if you are raised here, it will most likely be by a better hand, as no one could have the nut flush draw. You want to build the pot, but still need to protect your stack; a ½ pot size bet should do both.

Turn: Gin! Now you need to find a way to build the pot, and not lose the fish. Your bet is deceptive, and should keep Ax, KcQ, and maybe some Qx hands in. But, a c-bet a little more than 1/3 the pot would build the pot (for a larger river bet), and should still keep the villains in the pot.

River: 4th club – This will get the made draws to call a third bet, but should lose the pairs. A value bet less than ½ the pot seems reasonable, good bet. A raise and a call follow your value bet; time to get the rest of your stack in, seems like the BTN is sticking to his hand.


"May the cards be with you!"
 
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Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:13 AM
(#5)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
hey soth hows it going


Even though you won this pot , i really did not like the way you played this hand.

Preflop have you heard the expression, fold,raise or reraise, calling does not come into it,

Ok you are in good posistion, but still weak hands are vunerable.

At this early stage do you need to play this hand really?

Ok if i was going to play this hand im raising with it preflop isolating the play hopefully

A standard 3x raise would of been suitable

flop

you bet 90 into a 150 pot, a bit weak, ideally a 120-130 bet would of been better,

No opps putting you on a ace because you never represented it preflop, this allows people to call you on worse muck and get lucky, so be aware of this.


The turn again weak betting,

The outcome was lucky to be honest, do not let yourself be illusioned by this one hand and become result orientated thinking.
 
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Wed Jul 18, 2012, 01:52 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
(Super-Moderator)
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Hi SothAAAA!

With an unopened pot, I'm going to either make a std raies (3BB) or I'm folding. I don'l like to open-limp, especially out of position, as it makes playing the hand much more difficult. If I vary my bets, it also can very easily be a tell for any of the opponents as to how strong my hand is.... which I do not want to do.

The flop gives me top pair/bad kicker and a nut flush draw. I do want to make a value bet here, but I need to size it so that I don't price out my flush draw, as into a limped pot, I could very easily be outkicked right now and not have the best hand. With 4 opps in the hand, when it's checked to me, I'm going to make a 1/2 pot bet of 75 here and hope that multiple opps stay in the hand. If I bet more than this or if only one opp calls, then I will not be getting the right odds to draw to the flush.

The turn gives me the flush. Since I now know that I have the best hand, I need to make a value bet that would price out any opp that has 2 pair and would be drawing to beat me with a full house. I'm going to make my std value bet here of 1/2 pot (210). I don't want to bet less for two reasons. First, being that I do not want to price in a draw and secondly, I don't want to lose value for my made hand.

The river brings another club and while highly unlikely, there is one possible hand tha can beat me. It won't normally happen, but with the way that the pot was played (limp pre, bet on flop, small bet on turn).... 46 clubs is in their range, unfortunately. This is a good reason why I want to raise preflop, as a preflop raise should get rid of this combo from the opp's range.
Since I most likely have the best hand, I'm going to make another 1/2 pot value bet here and I'm going to call/shove to any opp that would raise me.

I was lucky that both opps played this hand badly and went all-in on the river. It would have been much easier to get their chips in if I had raised preflop, then made a 1/2 pot bet on the turn... which is the betting pattern that I would have used for this hand. I want to get the chips in by the river and getting more chips in earlier, I can accomplish this much easier.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed Jul 18, 2012, 11:35 PM
(#7)
SothAAAA's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 55
BronzeStar
Many thanks for your comments and views, guys. Much appreciated.
erm... just to clarify, I don't always limp. Just felt right for this particular hand


~'If you want to win... you have to have White Magic.'- PH~
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 12:13 AM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by SothAAAA View Post
Many thanks for your comments and views, guys. Much appreciated.
erm... just to clarify, I don't always limp. Just felt right for this particular hand

It's NOT the limping soth,it's the OPEN limping.

Always try to keep your bets to open a hand standard. If you begin to mix up how you enter a hand as the first player in by hand strength there are players,even in the .25 games,that can and will pick up on this and exploit you with the info.

Making your entry into a pot when you are the first to enter the same every time will hide your hand strength. You want that.

Good luck/better decisions.
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 05:43 AM
(#9)
Jonny9691's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post

The turn gives me the flush. Since I now know that I have the best hand, I need to make a value bet that would price out any opp that has 2 pair and would be drawing to beat me with a full house. I'm going to make my std value bet here of 1/2 pot (210).

John (JWK24)
My Question JKW24 is- if you make half pot bet of 210 making the pot 630 are you not giving the villian 3/1pot odds ?

I dont know what his odds of hitting hit full house would be but at this level I dont think most would understand the concept,
There for I would expect a call from two pair!

Thx jonny 9691
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 10:53 AM
(#10)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny9691 View Post
I dont know what his odds of hitting hit full house would be but at this level I dont think most would understand the concept,
There for I would expect a call from two pair!

Thx jonny 9691
The odds two pair will make a boat after the turn is 8.68%, which relates to 10.5:1 odds. The bet on the turn is a pure value bet. You're not concerned about pricing anyone out of the pot, your only concern is how many chips are the villains willing to pay to see the river card.


"May the cards be with you!"
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 11:36 AM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny9691 View Post
My Question JKW24 is- if you make half pot bet of 210 making the pot 630 are you not giving the villian 3/1pot odds ?

I dont know what his odds of hitting hit full house would be but at this level I dont think most would understand the concept,
There for I would expect a call from two pair!

Thx jonny 9691
Hi Jonny!

A 1/2 pot bet will be 25% pot equity (.5x pot divided by 2 x). If the opp has 2 pair, then they have 4 outs to hit a full house, so at 2% equity per out, the opp has 8% hand equity.
This way, the bet is both for value and also does price the opp out, as the pot equity is higher than their hand equity.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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