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45ppl 25c sng jj against tag

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45ppl 25c sng jj against tag - Thu Jul 19, 2012, 02:55 PM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=80506F066F

i would just like to clarify my thinking on this hand

the opp was nit/tag i only recall seeing him play two hands,may of been more but very few.

i 3x

the opp then raises me

I then pause and think, i cannot just call, if the flop comes low i could be in trouble as i had a big worry of running into over pair and would be under pressure if the flop come low to make a big desision

i decide to reraise to test my hand strenght compared to his

he then jams it in my face this screams out as danger and i fold

my ? how is my thought process on this hand?
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 03:44 PM
(#2)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
JWK24 can do the equity equation thing here if he feels like,I'm not going to bother as it's not necessary in this case,the problem here being so glaring.

This is a 100% unadulterated spew,pure and simple. After he min-raises your 3x open you have to decide,RIGHT NOW,that to continue forward in this hand with a raise that you are 100% committed to getting it in if he comes back over top of you.

Raising and then folding here is a huge chip leak,a total fish play. You CANNOT be putting 1/6 of your stack in a hand and then not even seeing a flop at this stage (well at any stage actually...).

And you say you re-raised to check the strength of your hand? By min-raising back at him. You didn't check anything holdem...you showed weakness. He very well may have jammed in your face with WORSE here. If you had played this hand like this at me,unless I have a bonafide,gold-plated read that you'll slow walk a hand up like this with a monster hand then I'm jamming in your face 100 times out of 100 here. You told him you were going to fold to a jam with that weak sauce min-raise back at him.

With JJ here this is a tight spot. What I would do with the opps min-raise back at me would be totally read dependent. If he's as tight as you say I would probably be inclined to give him credit for a big hand and cut my losses. There are some types I would jam it in their face here. I can even see a (albeit slight...) chance of calling here.

But what you actually did here is,to be brutally honest,simply terrible. This is a spew,nothing more,nothing less.
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 04:12 PM
(#3)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
What were the two hands he played?

I would probably fold the jacks here if he's playing that tight.

You dont need to test your hand when you have a good read on the player the only time you min raise back is when you want to induce the bluff for your jam.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 04:21 PM
(#4)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
thats not spewing mox thats clever and inovative play, 3 out of 5 final tables today with all my spew.

its not the size of the raise but the fact i raised,reraised a raise and he had obvious strenght

thats poker not jamming or just calling and hoping you are good.

Im not folding jj for 1 reraise he might of been testing the water with a bluff so i retested the water with my own play

if he calls i dont think he has aces, maybe kk or qq but good information obtained, i like to know where i am at preflop and not guessing my strenght on the flop.any over on the flop i fold any low flop i probably fold,two outs and possible combination outs what else you hoping for with JJ.
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 04:23 PM
(#5)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
im not sure of the two hands b the opp did play,i read the table a bit different than standard ways.
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 04:44 PM
(#6)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
thats not spewing mox thats clever and inovative play, 3 out of 5 final tables today with all my spew.

its not the size of the raise but the fact i raised,reraised a raise and he had obvious strenght

thats poker not jamming or just calling and hoping you are good.

Im not folding jj for 1 reraise he might of been testing the water with a bluff so i retested the water with my own play

if he calls i dont think he has aces, maybe kk or qq but good information obtained, i like to know where i am at preflop and not guessing my strenght on the flop.any over on the flop i fold any low flop i probably fold,two outs and possible combination outs what else you hoping for with JJ.

If you made 3 out of 5 final tables today (or ANY day) making plays like this then I agree with you 100% on another subject---PokerStars HAS to be rigged.

Whatever,I'm done here. Maybe when one of the "official" hand analyzers clue's you in on how big a fish play this is you'll listen.

To newer peeps that actually DO want to learn something about this game if you listen to anything this individual has to impart my condolences to your BR.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Thu Jul 19, 2012 at 04:47 PM..
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 04:49 PM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,832
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Holdemace!

With JJ, I'm going to make my standard opening raise to 3BB+1BB for each limper, so I'll raise to 300.
The small blind then makes a small re-raise to 600. Here is where my decision in the hand needs to be. I need to raise/call/fold.
If I call, then I'm basically turning JJ into a bluff.. which I do not want to do, as I expect to see an overcard on the flop.
If I raise, then I need to make a standard 4-bet to 3X the SB's bet, which is to 1800 and if I do so, I'm pot committed and must call a shove.
Or, I could fold.
What I would do is going to be 100% dependant on the read that I have of the opp. If the opp is playing loose, I'm raising and will be ready to call a shove (I could also shove here too instead of raising to 1800). If the opp is playing tight, then I'm most likely at best in a race, so I'm going to fold.

The one thing that I do not want to do is to make a raise to anything smaller than 1800 and the sizing of a raise is absolutely important. When playing a poker hand, I need to tell a consistant story with ALL of my actions in the hand. If I do not do this, then any opponent that is watching will be able to pick up on it and exploit it.
An initial raise to 3BB is saying to the opponents that I have a strong hand. When I get 3-bet and make a very small 4-bet, that tells the opponents that my hand is very weak. It's not consistant at all and does not make sense.
Any opponent that is watching the hand should be able to pick up on this, as it just doesn't look right, and should immediately 5-bet shove, regardless of whether they have a hand or not.
When the opp does this, it is just the same as me throwing away an extra 600 chips. It is a HUGE spew and chip leak of over 10% of my stack!
Whenever I am playing in a tourney or in a ring game, I work hard for every chip that I get and the last thing that I want to do is to just give some of them away.

I'm either going to raise to 1800 or fold JJ here to the opp's 3-bet and the decision will be based on my read of the opp.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 06:42 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Our clever and innovative OP'er responds to JWK's post with...

...crickets.

Color me shocked.
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 06:43 PM
(#9)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
thx john for the great analysis again and i see my mistake,

and mox im still learning and thought this was a good play ,a bit different yes i agree and hardly text book,and like john says every chip is important but i sore it as find out now or commit and maybe loose to an all in.

i did not fancy 3-4x his initail raise and to be honest just nearly snap folded before my raise,

i would never tell a begginer to try this it was just something a bit different so put up for analysis on my thought pattern which was obviously way off reality.

mox are you sure you are not phil helmuff or tony g in disguise lol.
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 06:48 PM
(#10)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
thx john for the great analysis again and i see my mistake,

and mox im still learning and thought this was a good play ,a bit different yes i agree and hardly text book,and like john says every chip is important but i sore it as find out now or commit and maybe loose to an all in.

i did not fancy 3-4x his initail raise and to be honest just nearly snap folded before my raise,

i would never tell a begginer to try this it was just something a bit different so put up for analysis on my thought pattern which was obviously way off reality.

mox are you sure you are not phil helmuff or tony g in disguise lol.

Forget a beginner it's just a leaky.spewy play for anyone. You can't fold out after putting 1/6th of your stack in the middle like that. And that min-raise over his min-raise is what set you up for that.

Look,at this level if you're trying to be "clever" you're probably making moves that are costing you more chips than they will ever win for you.

Neither...more like Norman Chad.
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 06:56 PM
(#11)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
yea mox true probably i am trying be too clever at the low levels and yes i suppose this costs at times,maybe i should stick to standard plays.

thx guys you know i appreciate your help its took my ranking to 94% + this year and a tidy $150 + profit according to one tracker site.
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 07:12 PM
(#12)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Changing up one's tactics and play at times to keep your opponents guessing IS a good thing. You need to have flex in your game.

But doing it against people who,quite simply,are NOT PAYING ATTENTION is a way to get yourself into sticky spots needlessly.

Look,the vast preponderance of the players at these levels,you KNOW what they're going to do (or at least you should if you're paying attention). They'll hang themselves for you if you give them enough rope,over and over again.

The ones you need to worry about are the competent players. They should stick out like a sore thumb. You get your chips from them when you can and try to give them as few of your chips as possible.

You don't see the lionesses on the Savanna trying to pick off the big,alert water buffalo do you? Nope,they always go for the dull,inattentive water buffalo and pick HIS butt off (while his "buddies" haul ass away from him...).

There's a lesson in there somewhere.
 
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Thu Jul 19, 2012, 07:29 PM
(#13)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
thx mox i here you m8t and understand what you are saying
 
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Fri Jul 20, 2012, 04:01 AM
(#14)
mcrissinger's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,650
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Neither...more like Norman Chad.
Actually, I'm pretty sure he's won a WSOP bracelet. Norman Chad, that is. Not holdemace.

Stupid Norman Chad hasn't joined holemace's home game so's that he can be learned about the pokers.
 

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