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2 NL ZOOM - flop push TPTK+nut flush draw OOP

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2 NL ZOOM - flop push TPTK+nut flush draw OOP - Wed Jul 25, 2012, 07:50 AM
(#1)
wwictor's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 19


No reads on opp. Feels like major blunder.

Is there any justification for push?

I mean, in ZOOm peoplee can call with QQ (been called down with 33 recently) but on average looks unprofitable.
Subconscious screamed "you wont fold anyway no matter what he does and what card comes on turn".
Am I being careless?
 
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Wed Jul 25, 2012, 10:43 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,504
(Head Trainer)
Hi again,

First of all you're staring short stacked again with 60 bb's, consider topping off to a 100 bb stack (or are you starting min-stacked intentionally and working up from there? If not top your stack off). On your stack size of 60 bb's just get AK in preflop all the time here. You open to 4x, he's makes it 12 x, ship it right there. You have some fold equity, but will get called off by worse aces and pocket pairs, AK plays fine against this range and it negates your positional disadvantage. Flatting his 3b is not ideal as now you need to hit your hand or you'll be largely resided to check/folding, which makes playing the AK -EV on balance. Playing 3b pots out of position without the initiative is a common leak, try to avoid it.

As played, I prefer to check-raise all in. Certainly we are never folding on this flop in a low spr situation, but since he was the preflop aggressor I like to let him continuation bet and then drop the bomb... we're much more likely to get called off by the QQ and JJ hands then as well, since our stack is short at the point we c/r shove they will feel like they are getting the right price if we're just on the naked ace of clubs some of the time. And if he's whiffed completely like AQ or AhJh we can pick up his c-bet before he folds, rather than shoving initially where he'll just fold those without putting any more money in.

Hope this helps.

Dave


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Wed Jul 25, 2012, 11:10 AM
(#3)
wwictor's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 19
So much clearer. TY

Last edited by wwictor; Wed Jul 25, 2012 at 11:15 AM..
 
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My thoughts - Fri Aug 03, 2012, 04:05 PM
(#4)
PickledACE's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 3
The shove was not a 'bad' move as there are lots of players on zoom who would shove and call with lesser holdings however I think a check will work out better for you most of the time when you were re-raised pre-flop.

In regards to pre-flop play I have to disagree with the analysis only because it was on zoom. I would not be going all in a lot with AK on zoom when re-raised because of the ease of getting AA and KK in zoom. When you are able to go through 500+ hands/hr you will find enough of the players don't go crazy pre-flop without AA or KK to make this profitable. If you have some history with a player then you can accommodate that knowledge but it will be a lot easier on your bank roll if you do not four bet shove with AK on zoom. However, in reverse, ALWAYS re-raise if you hold AK on a single raiser as it will be an auto stack loss if you run in AA or KK with the hit. If they re-raise you know to fold and save money. If you get called you know you are at worst needing a hit and can be willing to race.

I have been finding the play can vary a lot on zoom but the more people loosen up the more profitable you will remain by tightening up your play and by simply avoiding resistance when holding less than two pair. Set mining can kill you on there if you always call with top pair.
 
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Sat Aug 04, 2012, 01:44 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,504
(Head Trainer)
Hi PickledACE,

Thanks for chiming in and adding to the discussion!

100+ bb's deep I tend to agree, but we're only 60 bb's to start the hand, I don't think raise/folding or raise/calling with AK here on only 60 bb's is going to be good.

We'll be getting 3b by a lot more than just AA/KK, even if they call a 4b shove tight, we'll be picking up 16.5 bb's when they fold and still have reasonable equity when they call.

It's a bit tricky without reads since we don't know how often this particular villain is 3-betting a late position open. Just looking at a bit of math... if the villain 3-bets 6%, and only calls our 4b with JJ+ and AK (3%, and again after having just put 12bb's in he's probably calling us at least this loose for only 60 total).

Half the time we'd pick up the 16.5bb's
The other half we're a 60-40 equity dog roughly to JJ+ and AK.
So we'll lose our 56 bb shove 60% of the time, and win 65.5 bb's 40% of the time.

EV=.5(16.5) + [.5(65.5*.4)] - [.5(56*.6)] = 8.25 + 13.1 - 16.8 = +4.55 bb's

If he calls with all of it, all 6%, then we're about 52-48 favorite with a small overlay, so that's fine.

If he only calls our shove with AA/KK (again not likely he's folding QQ, JJ, AK etc to our 60 bb shove), then our hand equity is terrible when called, 81.5-18.5 dog. But in that case he's also folding to our shove 85% of the time, so the math works out like this:

EV=.85(16.5) + [.15(65.5*.185)] - [.15(56*.815)] = 14.025 + 1.82 - 6.85 = +8.995 bb's

The EV of shoving is pretty profitable here. If the villain were ONLY 3 betting us with AA/KK here then we could just fold our AK directly to his 3b. But without a read that he's a very nitty 3-bettor, 4-betting all in should work fine in terms of profitability on shallower money (60 bb's is a bit shallow to begin with, and it's artificially more shallow due to the larger bet sizing, which makes this math work out to be more attractive to us and why I tend to agree with what you said when the money is not this shallow).

Dave


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Sat Aug 04, 2012, 01:47 AM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,504
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PickledACE View Post
Set mining can kill you on there if you always call with top pair.
BTW, I definitely agree with this, especially the deeper the effective stack is, and not just in zoom but regular paced tables as well.

Dave


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I get the point - Fri Aug 31, 2012, 02:14 AM
(#7)
PickledACE's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 3
Thanks for going into that a bit deeper. I see the point and now having a little more experience on zoom see that there are more players 3b'ing light than I had first encountered.

Nature of the beast I guess. The fact that you have the ability to easily fold also makes the light betting more effective.

As a rule I tend to 3b hands that I believe are superior but will having a more difficult time holding up on flops to check raising. I am beginning to think that adding hidden drawing hands to that range may provide a bit more guts to my game when over 100bb.

I am thinking of hands like 56s and 87s that can connect well with the right flops. Any thoughts in regards to long term profitability?
 
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Fri Aug 31, 2012, 02:32 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,504
(Head Trainer)
I don't think in zoom you need to do much light 3-betting at microstakes, but yes if the money is deep I would mix a few of those hands into my 3b range in spots where I think they'll be difficult to play well/profitably post flop (out of position, tough opponent, aggro opponent, whatever), flat with them when I think there is an even bigger edge keeping the money deep and playing post flop (in position, readable opponent, exploitable opponent, etc), and fold them when neither course seems clear cut.


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