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Late stage play 90man sng advise (ChewMe1)

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Late stage play 90man sng advise (ChewMe1) - Sat Jul 28, 2012, 09:09 AM
(#1)
hbhuang341's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 79
Hi guys,

Im grind a lot in the 90man sngat 2,5 and the thing i notice of my play is the late stage play(around 27 players and around the bubble).
I think i suck at that stage,there are few reasons: Im kinda afraid to steal chips from the button and cut off,because if i steal and get called ,how can i get him out of the pot.I usually steal with more than 15 BB with almost 26% of my range,depends on stacksizes and image .Sometimes,i face a good strong agg player in the blinds and when i try to steal with a decent stack,he will 3bet and I fold.Also what i notice from me is the post-flop play,when i am in position and try to steal and get called,i play very passive and most of the time i will check-fold.
The other reason is that im very easy to exploit.I am a tag solid player,not abc poker,but i dont like to make a lot of wild moves in late stages...It's very easy to steal blinds from me and i fold also a lot till i got a hand to play with and plays a lot of coinflips when im all in.

I prefer like that ChewMe1 give me some advise,but other tip and advise are welcome !
 
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Blind play - Sat Jul 28, 2012, 11:07 AM
(#2)
bearxing's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 499
Hi hbhung341. the Langolier has a four part series on how to play the blinds. They are sessions 81, 82, 86, and 88. These will give you lots of information on both attacking and defending the blinds.

Good luck
Doug


3 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Jul 28, 2012, 12:07 PM
(#3)
ChewMe1's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 574
Hey hbhuang341

It sounds like you have a solid understanding of stealing the blinds but I feel like a few things need to be tweaked?

Stealing from strong agg players - don't do it
Against these types of opponents I will 90% of the time only be raising their blinds with the intention of calling their reshove all in, or with the intention of 4betting their 3bet.
Until we build history with these strong agg players this is the best way to play against them imo. If they are smart and click onto the fact we are only raise calling/raise 4betting them , then we can add in some raise folds.

Don't forget that even with a 15 - 20bb ish stack we can profitably open shove some hands that we may raise fold, i.e.... small pocket pairs, QJs/K10s etc, so make sure to adjust accordingly, ( maybe raise fold QJs with an 18 bb stack vs a nit, but open shove it into a strong agg player ).

As for defending our blinds goes, in these 180 man/90/man/45 man/27 man and 18 man's the villain stealing our blind will in most cases have less than 30 bb's, or us ourrselves will have less than 30 bb's.

So with that being said, most of the restealing opportunities we take from the bb will simply be to reshove all in, because that's all the stack sizes allow us to do. In some cases we can find cool spots to 3bet if stack sizes allow us to, but most of the time it's just going to be best to reshove all in.

I never have a certain range of hands when I resteal, I resteal purely on the informtion given to me at the time. Being dealt hands which increase our equity if called entice me to make the reshove more often.

If we have a strong agg raising our blinds from late position and the effective stack sizes are 20 bb then I will have a healthy amount of hands to reshove in his face. When we feel like the strong agg player is adjusting to the way we play our blinds then we will also adjust.... so if I feel like he is not going to steal my blind again without the intention of calling my reshove... then I will simply give up defending my blinds until I have a hand im prepared to go to war with... does that make sense ?

It's a mind game, and it's fun. Now versus the more tag / nitty players then we can maybe get away with other stuff like 3betting or calling out of position, ' dislike calling out of position very often but it is beneficial sometimes'.

When we are approaching the bubble or the last couple of tables then this is when it's time to really switch on, if our table is playing tight and weak then we will play more hands and we will steal from the button.

One quick note about stealing from the dealer button : Yes everybody knows that iy's very likely we are stealing if we are raising the blinds from the dealer button, but unless we are up against strongg agg players then it isn't as big of a problem as a lot of us think.

Poor passive players will defend super lightly and check fold a lot of the time, and also pay us off when we hit something.

For me, it's all about thinking what they are thinking, the information given to me, and the effective stack sizes.

One more thing, if a strong agg is raising from middle / late position and they're are a lot of reshove stacks behind him , lets say ( 9 - 18 bb stacks for 45 mans) then it's quite likely he has a strong holding as he will know the chances of him being reshoved on is very high. This is a huge piece of information that a lot of people do not notice. It helps me tremendously.

Hope this helped mate, good luck at the tables.

Last edited by ChewMe1; Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 04:48 PM.. Reason: Typo city ;)
 
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Sat Jul 28, 2012, 06:07 PM
(#4)
hbhuang341's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChewMe1 View Post

Stealing from strong agg players - don't do it
Against these types of opponents I will 90% of the time only be raising their blinds with the intention of calling their reshove all in, or with the intention of 4betting their 3bet.
Until we build history with these strong agg players this is the best way to play against them imo. If they are smart and click onto the fact we are only raise calling/raise 4betting them , then we can add in some raise folds.
-HB:So it's better to play tighter to steal their blinds?But when you picked something like JJ+,KQs+ and AJo+ on the button and you have a decent stack,let's say villian has a stack around 28 BB and i have a stack of 17BB.The first thing i will do is min-raising and i know for sure villian will 3bet me,so at that point,i think i have 15 BB(after making a min-raise) and villian 3bet like 3 times the BB,so if i call,i have 12BB post-flop and im already committed.My question is,when i have a read on villian,is it better to 4bet all-in or just folding a 3bet?

I never have a certain range of hands when I resteal, I resteal purely on the informtion given to me at the time. Being dealt hands which increase our equity if called entice me to make the reshove more often.
-HB::Is it better to use pokerstove?

If we have a strong agg raising our blinds from late position and the effective stack sizes are 20 bb then I will have a healthy amount of hands to reshove in his face. When we feel like the strong agg player is adjusting to the way we play our blinds then we will also adjust.... so if I feel like he is not going to steal my blind again without the intention of calling my reshove... then I will simply give up defending my blinds until I have a hand im prepared to go to war with... does that make sense ?
-HB:at's make sense,but from my nature,it's a very scary play to reshove into villian when we have a healthy stack....Never make that moves btw...

When we are approaching the bubble or the last couple of tables then this is when it's time to really switch on, if our table is playing tight and weak then we will play more hands and we will steal from the button.
-HB:Well the thing i experienced was that the big stacks was always bullying me and i was blinded in no time, so i always end up as short-stack and i had to shove to get a healhty stack.
In that stage.I also fold a lot and i'm started to nit like hell...I only shove A-rag and 55+ when im running out of time.And the problem is that the table notice that im way too easy to get my chips from the blinds...So what's your advise here?


Poor passive players will defend super lightly and check fold a lot of the time, and also pay us off when we hit something.
-HB:*I like those players in late stages*
ChewMe1,im bad in quoting,so i hope you'll answer me soon :P!

Last edited by hbhuang341; Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 06:10 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:25 PM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbhuang341 View Post
I think i suck at that stage
I can relate to that feeling

When the MicroMillions was on, there were a ton of cheap satellites for every tourney running about every hour or so for like $0.25 or 20FPPs, etc. So I started playing a bunch of those to try and get more practice doing some of these more advanced moves that I'd seen ChewMe do in his videos ... I think it helped to have the entry fee be so little - then I didn't feel so much pressure to try and make my money back? And since they were satellites where everybody gets the same prize when they cash, I hardly even cared about the prize half the time either, since it would just be like T$2.20 or whatever.

That felt really liberating ... to not think about the money at all, and just give trying to those new moves a try - just to see how it would go.

I guess they don't have satellites like that anymore now that the MicroMillions are over, but there's still some turbo satties and some rebuy satties for the big $2.20, and there's that $0.25 regular speed tourney - maybe that might work for you too, trying out some of these new moves at the lower-priced levels first? Overall, I was just thrilled with the way some of these new moves wound up working out, so hopefully you'll find the same is true for you too! GL!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 06:28 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:34 PM
(#6)
ChewMe1's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 574
I'm not good at quoting either lol.

So beginning with Question 1...

In a scenario where we have 17bb's on the button vs a strong agg reg we can for sure sometimes raise with the intention of coming over the top of a 3bet if we have enough evidence to do so. Not all strong agg regs will 3bet a 17 bb stack... the reason for this is because not many 17 bb stacks will have the intention of raise folding to a 3 bet, in most cases they will go with their hand. So be sure to note who will and who wont 3bet fold to a 17 bb stack.

The plan is to not often raise fold the button/late pos vs a strong agg player very often, I will have a plan to either call the 3bet and play in position ( if stack sizes allow it ) or 4bet jam all in.


Question 2

I personally don't use pokerstove to help me with my decisions but I know people that do, so if your quite savvy with pokerstove I don't see why not, I rely more on the meta game side of things rather than percentages.

Question 3
Reshoving all in for 20-25 ish bb's is a tool we must have if we are going to successfully crush our opponents into smitherines

We wont be over abusing 20-25 ish bb's all in reshove, we will just be using it in spots where we have the information and the correct table image for it to work.

Quick example... agg player with 40 bb stack raises the HJ, there are 2 nits to act behind him and then there is us in the BB with a tight table image, we are dealt 89s with a 20 bb stack.... this is an ok spot for a 20 bb reshove ( if there are blinds and antes ).

Question 5

If you are being bullied and your blinds are getting stolen and you are getting 3bet etc then you probably look like the easy target at the table.

This is where you need to start looking for spots to reshove all in/3bet/ become more aggressive preflop, if you have a tight table image then you can get away with this for quite some time. Just remember to adjust the way you play when you feel like your opponents are adjusting to the way you play.

^ Most important thing here is to continuasly be looking for good spots. ALWAYS be looking for good spots to accumulate chips. It's what keeps you steps ahead of everybody else.

I hope this helped to clear things up for you, as a poker player we need as many tools as we can get our hands on i.e.. 3betting/4betting/reshoving/value betting/ranging opponents/ the list goes on... get my drift ?

The hardest part is knowing when to use these tools correctly, and you will learn this by trial and error and by watching training videos/participating in live training sessions.


I hope this helped clear things up a bit for you, cheers, Chris.





Last edited by ChewMe1; Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 08:23 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 11:33 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Those are great tips ChewMe!!

I'm still learning too HB, and something else I just started doing is watching those final table replays for the MicroMillions (under 'Events' > 'MicroMillions' ). I can't figure out how it works - are the replays just on endless loop? Like when we click on them there's no way to reset it to start?

Anyways, they're kind of cool because you can see everybody's hole cards. So you can see how the various criteria affecting peoples' decision-making might tend to interplay, like position, playing style, stack sizes relative to the other stacks and relative to the blinds, the strengths of peoples' hole cards, prize money, etc, etc.

I just started watching them - hopefully they'll be up for a while! So cool because they're at the beginner skill level too. Like those high stakes players seem to have a lot more experience playing any hand in the deck, so maybe when only those final tables get posted, they're too different?

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 11:51 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:44 AM
(#8)
hbhuang341's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 79
...
 
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Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:47 AM
(#9)
hbhuang341's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 79
To ::TrustySam
I know there was a lot cheap satties,i stopped to play sng and play satties all the day.It was really a boost for my bankroll,especially the satt for the main event (Cashed 5 times !).The only satty i didnt play was the one of sunday storm,just because i dont like that structure :P

Well,it's so bad that they dont run satties like mm.Im not a big fan of rebuy and turbo tournaments,variance is a bitch and when it hits me,i will driving crazy
 
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Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:48 AM
(#10)
hbhuang341's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Those are great tips ChewMe!!

I'm still learning too HB, and something else I just started doing is watching those final table replays for the MicroMillions (under 'Events' > 'MicroMillions' ). I can't figure out how it works - are the replays just on endless loop? Like when we click on them there's no way to reset it to start?

Anyways, they're kind of cool because you can see everybody's hole cards. So you can see how the various criteria affecting peoples' decision-making might tend to interplay, like position, playing style, stack sizes relative to the other stacks and relative to the blinds, the strengths of peoples' hole cards, prize money, etc, etc.

I just started watching them - hopefully they'll be up for a while! So cool because they're at the beginner skill level too. Like those high stakes players seem to have a lot more experience playing any hand in the deck, so maybe when only those final tables get posted, they're too different?
Great idea,didnt think about to do that thanks thanks !
How do you observe them ??? And what's the best way to observe ?
 
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Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:59 AM
(#11)
hbhuang341's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChewMe1 View Post

Question 3
Reshoving all in for 20-25 ish bb's is a tool we must have if we are going to successfully crush our opponents into smitherines

We wont be over abusing 20-25 ish bb's all in reshove, we will just be using it in spots where we have the information and the correct table image for it to work.

Quick example... agg player with 40 bb stack raises the HJ, there are 2 nits to act behind him and then there is us in the BB with a tight table image, we are dealt 89s with a 20 bb stack.... this is an ok spot for a 20 bb reshove ( if there are blinds and antes ).

[/COLOR][/COLOR]
-HB:Is there a training video about that? I know in late stage,they'll give more respect but im not a person who likes to shove w/ 98s with a 20 BB stack,that's too high risk i think.I prefer like to go to the flop and see what happens.And with a 20BB stack,you have a healthy stack,so why do you use so much risk ?? (Im very feared about that)
 
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Mon Jul 30, 2012, 08:58 PM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbhuang341 View Post
To ::TrustySam
I know there was a lot cheap satties,i stopped to play sng and play satties all the day.It was really a boost for my bankroll,especially the satt for the main event (Cashed 5 times !).The only satty i didnt play was the one of sunday storm,just because i dont like that structure :P
Oh yeah, haha - mostly I was playing them for practice in trying out more blinds stealing and resteals.

You wanna see a resteal I tried in one of these satties? It's way different from how I'd usually play, so that was kind of scary, but I just went through the checklist of criteria and it seemed like a good spot:

- had AKo
- had 20bb's (not counting the M thing with the antes ... just using 20 as the rough guide)
- nobody's less than 10bb's
- the big stack wasn't super reckless or anything
- utg is super LAG and keeps folding to peoples' reraises ... and then would show everybody their A2o
- button was super tight and didn't reraise, so it didn't seem likely that hey had AA or KK ... I thought they'd probably fold. And then I'd be able to pick up 1650 chips uncontested - that would be almost a 25% increase in stack!



So, zomg ... button didn't fold like I thought they would - scary!!! Disaster!!!!!

Then after I calmed down, you know what, it was kind of a cool experience. It wasn't supposed to be so high risk because I didn't think i was gonna get called. But my instincts that way aren't so great at predicting how people are likely to respond the way better players are. But still, I guess that's the backup plan of the resteal - that it's only done with hands that still have good equity in the event that there's a call?

And then so yeah, that wound up being higher risk than just calling and just winning or losing a litte.

But then on the other hand, after it was all over, something that wound up being cool about it was that before the hand there were about 15 of us left with 71/2 getting paid, and like 10 of us all about tied and hovering +/- at the bubble level (with about 2 people with big stacks in the clear and about 2 people super short and hoping for a double up). So usually I'd try to hang on and hope others would take a risk and go out first and I'd survive to ITM. And hopefully get a monster hand in the meantime like AA or something (which never happens ). And by winning this hand, I was in the clear and guaranteed a $2.20 ticket. And then it occurred to me that if the flip had gone the other way, it'd have just been $0.33 cents lost - and there was no guarantee that if I chose the safer route that I'd have managed to make it ITM. And overall, even though that flip was super-stressful, I didn't have to stress the bubble since ITM didn't hit for like another 20-30 minutes.

If I had known I'd have likely got a call when I tried the resteal, I probably wouldn't have done it lol! But since I did, it turned out kind of cool. I was really lucky the flip went my way though, because if it hadn't, I might have been scared to try it again, yeah.

So, I don't know ... I guess I feel like that's part of the fun of poker is trying out new things. And when the entry fee is only $0.33, it's not so bad either way ...


That being said, maybe this isn't the ideal way to play satties - like maybe we're supposed to not take chances close to the bubble? But I was just using this for practice, so ... these were just my experiences with it - not saying it was the best way or anything ... just a different way. Just to try out new things and know how that feels and stuff ...


Let us know how it goes if you try one of these yourself!! GL!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Mon Jul 30, 2012 at 09:07 PM..
 

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