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folding the flopped nuts

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folding the flopped nuts - Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:56 AM
(#1)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hello all, this is my next tourney from the 2nd place I had, 2 out of 2 final tables, but 2-1 to the beats since I returned from my short poker break.

No longer shall i refer to a beat as a bad beat, as people on here are guiding me with some great input and food for thought.

Below in order of play, I have posted the significant hands in this game and a quote to go with each hand.

Please comment on any of the hands I would feel your input is in valuable to me. This is not an analysis, more of an opinion and advice on my general play, and one hand, thinking about situation and advice, I fold the flopped nuts.

1.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=FEA26F7C24

The opp was my target, he was laggy and fishy, I casted out my bait, and he hooked himself with little effort.



2.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=EAC51A9C79

Folding the flopped nuts, my spider sensies were tingling, or some advice I thought about

3.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=FD313469CC

My only option at this stage to chip up

4.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=0B33C7C3D6

OH NOOO, the fish broke my rod, I knew I was well ahead, I knew it was a race, I will not let this make me tilt and start to play like them.

Last edited by holdemace486; Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 09:02 AM.. Reason: text edit
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 01:05 PM
(#2)
FLsnookman's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 565
Hi holdem. While I am a fish I don't see the reasoning behind folding top set there. I thought the best way to play the game was using odds and pressure. Do you often play on feel? Does this work out well for you? Even if I "felt" the flush coming I would at least call there, who knows you might catch the boat. Again, I am just learning but it seems an odd play to me.
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 01:55 PM
(#3)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLsnookman View Post
Hi holdem. While I am a fish I don't see the reasoning behind folding top set there. I thought the best way to play the game was using odds and pressure. Do you often play on feel? Does this work out well for you? Even if I "felt" the flush coming I would at least call there, who knows you might catch the boat. Again, I am just learning but it seems an odd play to me.
Hand 2 - folding the flopped nuts?

You have got to be kidding

as the board is a flush draw I wouldn't check - but if I did ever check top set it would be to check raise or check call a shove.

A made hand is always better than a draw - although occasionally potentially close in terms of hand equity.

Getting it in ahead is never a bad idea - as you know the opponents have to hit in the next two cards to catch up.

Spider senses? Spider nonsenses....

I feel you are taking the urine once more ace -

C-mon - give us something sensible to look at - stop wasting the time of people who (unlike me) probably don't have the time to waste.


Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Sun Jul 29, 2012 at 01:57 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 02:34 PM
(#4)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
The only way I fold this hand on the flop is if someone pays me more cash money than my equity up front.

The best hand villain could have is QsJs for the straight, flush, and straight-flush draws. Guess what? With your outs to a boat you are ahead 53:47. There is NO WAY you can be priced out of this hand. Well maybe if you each had T$100k behind.

Spidey sense or not, I am shoving so fast everyone at the table head's will spin.

26 BBs left is not deep enough to be getting fancy. Open raise anything you are playing preflop or fold.

You flop top set and everyone is drawing to beat you. The money is not deep enough (and even worse if you raise pre) for anything but straight forward play here. Bet 3/4 the pot and hope for a caller. Its not bad if you get two as they are likely to have each others outs.

After the flop shove to your min bet I call and hope to get into a side pot.
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 02:37 PM
(#5)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hi guys no IM not taking the mick. it was a logical choice to fold at this time, may seem a strange one and jokingly the spider senses, just common sense.

I did not feel at this point i needed to risk calling the all in with fold equaity.

The question was it this fold what got me to the final table?, or is this the half empty glass that could of gained me a chip advantage?

if this was not a draw heavy board , i would of instantly called, like I have said before the question i ask myself is do i really need to make a play at any given stage.

Hope this helps to clarify why i folded ed and snooks.
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 02:54 PM
(#6)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hi trumptin, 25c in BR management is no less important to a decission than having 100k.

Your chips should be conserved at all oppurtunities in respect to getting to the later stages.

At this time i had no need to do anythin stupid, 25 bbs I was well in the game with no pressure.

hope this helps to clarify
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 04:27 PM
(#7)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
My final words on this:

EV is where you find it.
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 05:45 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Hi guys no IM not taking the mick. it was a logical choice to fold at this time, may seem a strange one and jokingly the spider senses, just common sense.

I did not feel at this point i needed to risk calling the all in with fold equaity.

The question was it this fold what got me to the final table?, or is this the half empty glass that could of gained me a chip advantage?

if this was not a draw heavy board , i would of instantly called, like I have said before the question i ask myself is do i really need to make a play at any given stage.

Hope this helps to clarify why i folded ed and snooks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Hi trumptin, 25c in BR management is no less important to a decission than having 100k.

Your chips should be conserved at all oppurtunities in respect to getting to the later stages.

At this time i had no need to do anythin stupid, 25 bbs I was well in the game with no pressure.

hope this helps to clarify

If you truly believe the gibberish you just imparted here then you have only 2 options before you...

1:For YOUR sake, quit playing poker for money immediately. You are 1000% clueless.

2:For the sake of EVERYONE ELSE, reload immediately and often. You are every other player's fantasy.
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 05:48 PM
(#9)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
My final words on this:

EV is where you find it.


+ INFINTY!!!!


Joe...he's doing something again...expectations wise...
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 06:00 PM
(#10)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hi moxie, you never played a hand different to the normal expected play?

My 1000% clueless as done four final tables in a row.

Just because its different does not mean it is wrong, on a different occasion I obviously would of pushed, however on this particular occasion decided to fold,

Call been really really nitty, as thats how i played this particular tourney, not giving anything away needlessly and taking very little risks.

If i had called I was gambling on the lots of possible out combos that kill my hand not coming.

Decided it was best to fold in this situation.
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 07:56 PM
(#11)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
The "normal expected play"?

Are you frigging kidding?

Going against the "normal expected play"---open limping the 1010 (which is never a good play,sorry...and is absolutely horrendous on your stack in this hand,and from this position to boot..) had gotten you a GREAT result.

You flopped the nuts and now have at least one stack prepared to double you up if they miss their draw (which will be more often than not---like Joe said the WORST you can ever be here HU is 53%...) and either will be getting a call from Coronna or have 400 additional chips in dead money in the middle. And if Coronna DOES call here and they're both on what you fear...a flush draw...then there are less outs there for the two of them.

And that's IF either one of them are on flush draws. You're just automatically assuming that. What if we're set over set against 2's here? I'm not going to say 99 because I would hate to think that TWO players would be horrific enough to be flatting or checking hands like 1010 and 99 here. (Actually scratch that--I would LOVE to think that...).

How about A10,109,A9,A2...a lower pair that has you guys made for A or Broadway hands that missed? How about a simp in the BB slow playing JJ or QQ (or better even...)?

You're assuming a flush draw when the real truth of the matter is that there are lots of hands out there that would be shipping at this level that we have crushed. And there are NO draws that we're dogs against. So seeing as the worst case scenario is still solidly +EV (even more so given the implied odds here---we win calling this shove and we're very strong to make the money,pass on this spot and we STILL are going to need help anyway...) and there are many scenarios that we're even more dominant against.

Spin this anyway you want to...if you don't want to see it then hopefully peeps who are less rock-headed will...this was a TERRIBLE play by you.
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:13 PM
(#12)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
I agree that 9 out 0f ten times my hand would of probably held, and what you saying is the actuall the way I should of played the hand,

But i just did not fancy it in the slightest, nearly just folded preflop, no physic predictions or anything like that, just did not fancy it.

You know im listening and will probably not do that again in the next 100 games mox, i listen to you and everyone else thats how come I do ok.
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:17 PM
(#13)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
and p.s on my 5th final table in a row with your help on here and everyone elses.

Attended two live sessions tonight with andre and again very usefull
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 08:47 PM
(#14)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Hi guys no IM not taking the mick. it was a logical choice to fold at this time, may seem a strange one and jokingly the spider senses, just common sense.

I did not feel at this point i needed to risk calling the all in with fold equaity.

The question was it this fold what got me to the final table?, or is this the half empty glass that could of gained me a chip advantage?

if this was not a draw heavy board , i would of instantly called, like I have said before the question i ask myself is do i really need to make a play at any given stage.

Hope this helps to clarify why i folded ed and snooks.

wtf is logical here?

you call with a good pair and hit top set

if you are only looking to continue the hand with quads - you are an idiot

if you hit the best hand and fold -you are an idiot

if you really want to just conserve chips - don't freaking call then fold

idiot, idiot, idiot

or should I say ****wit?

possibly not as it will possibly do me more damage in the forums than you - but you are one super ****wit - and for all the help you get, and for all the fun you get pissing about here - you are and will ever be a ****wit'

seriously

Ed etc
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:29 PM
(#15)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
im sorry you feel that way ed, and to be honest hope you get an infraction for that post.

you are again so wrong

no need to insult me but if thats your nature fair play. Its a game, thats it, Have i told anyone or advised anyway to play this way?

OR my way?

no

play your own games not mine, my style, my play, what works for me may not work for anyone else.

close the thread mods child like behaviour for a change.

again people doing it to sabotage my posts

i do not insult any one, may have some strange opinions but thats it.
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 09:40 PM
(#16)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
im sorry you feel that way ed, and to be honest hope you get an infraction for that post.

you are again so wrong

no need to insult me but if thats your nature fair play. Its a game, thats it, Have i told anyone or advised anyway to play this way?

OR my way?

no

play your own games not mine, my style, my play, what works for me may not work for anyone else.

close the thread mods child like behaviour for a change.

again people doing it to sabotage my posts

i do not insult any one, may have some strange opinions but thats it.

Well you know ace - everyone here is happy to give advice to new people - from the basics of where to find stuff in the forums to any general opinions on hand analysis, without any of us claiming we really have the be all and end all -

and you will note I do try to help you with practical stuff whilst also deriding your many dumb posts

I probably will get an infraction too - I thought I deserved one for my last post against you - which i thought was a bit over the top when I reread it - but these are the lengths I am prepared to go to - whilst also constantly trying to help you with stuff if you would only listen.

Purely as a business decision - I would ban you for life - because you make the forum seem like it is full of effwits who have no clue - and give bad advice - and I would not want that to be a feature of any place purporting to be the number one school of poker.

We have great players here, great trainers and great students - but frankly you and everything you bring are unnecessary.

Ed
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 10:01 PM
(#17)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
if you read my posts ed im constantly praising the school and all the peole on it who help me including yourself....

do you think name calling helps?

do you think newbies want to post when they are met with hostility alot of the time, or see people like me getting hammered with hostility all the time?

I get no or very little respect for my poker knowledge, even though i have now played for years, studid vast ammount of videos and write ups, countless hours of television etc.

I play live i do well

when i want to i win on here i tend to win

poker is not rocket science to be honest and will never me,

its no more than a game,

5 final tables in a row ed, since i decided i wanted to, not luck but skill ed, itm first thing,winning is second.

I in no way mock the school, the school corrects my issues,

along with the many trainers and many people who see beyond the madness who know what im about.

Honestly your percieved image of me like most is wrong, im not as an hardened poker fanatic as some, i do it leisurey.

But i know and am quite sure i could easily become pro if i wanted too.

So undecided with my life, its not my fault i live where i live and circumstances are not good.

anyway no probs ed and really hope u dont get infraction to be honest, im thick skinned and it does not bother me to be honest.

i hear worse live

but in all fairness i hope as many people as possible read this, im glad to have a fishy donk image,

anybody is welcome to call me out at the table.but i bet you im ahead.
 
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Sun Jul 29, 2012, 10:58 PM
(#18)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
If you can just "decide to win" and then do it, why is it you can't maintain a BR?? Are you independently wealthy, so that the money means nothing??

Good luck with your pro career.

 
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Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:19 AM
(#19)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
hey Joy, I have never had much money, my family is never been a rich family, Over the years you kinda get use to not having any money.

Money just is that not big of a deal to me. And to be honest my nature is to help others, to give rather than take and well thats a big problem when I do not like taking people money of them.
 
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Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:09 PM
(#20)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
hey Joy, I have never had much money, my family is never been a rich family, Over the years you kinda get use to not having any money.

Money just is that not big of a deal to me. And to be honest my nature is to help others, to give rather than take and well thats a big problem when I do not like taking people money of them.

"It's immoral to let a sucker keep their money." William "Canada Bill" Jones

Don't look for him in poker searches,he was a proposition gambler,card sharp and considered possibly the greatest 2 card monte hustler ever. Died in 1880 in a pauper's hospital due to his love for Faro,which he apparently was the fish in.

"When we play,we must realize,before anything else,that we are out to make money. David Sklansky

If you don't know who Sklansky is then you need to rectify that.


"The cardinal sin in poker,worse than playing dead cards,worse even than figuring your odds incorrectly,is becoming emotionally involved." Kathy Lederer

She's one of the greatest women players of all time and has taken a boat load of money off a lot of guys that are better than any of us will ever be.

"See in my world-the world of high stakes gin and poker-we play for cold,hard cash. It's all business,pure and simple. Anyone who thinks card playing is a game-I'll show you a loser. Money...M-O-N-E-Y. That's how you measure success. One dollar at a time. One chip at a time. That's how you keep score. Stu Unger

His personal demons off the tables aside,Unger was very probably the greatest mind and player to ever sit at a card table.


Is this staring to sink in yet? If you are not at the table to take every penny,every chip,from every fish,sucker,donk and drooler that you can then you have invented your own brand new Tilt.

Wussy Tilt.

Either play to crush your opponents at every opportunity or play on the play money tables.

Personally for your sake I hope that this is just you making another excuse for why you lose. Because if you really do feel sympathy for those whose chips and money that you are trying to take at the tables then that's as deadly a flaw as you can ever have in this game.
 

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