Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions /

Please comment Grinders make more money because.....

Old
Default
Please comment Grinders make more money because..... - Mon Jul 30, 2012, 11:25 AM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Hi All,

something i have been thinking about for a while (like 9.30 am anyway.)


Question: Why do multi table grinders make better profit per hour than a single table player?

Ok so the obvious answer would seem to be see more hands / play more hands easy right?

but .....why i starting thinking about this ( and i realize the answer might well be its because you are really bad Grade b and)
SO when i 6 table 2nl a usually book a winning session...so I moved to the nosebleed stakes of 5nl and to be safe was 4 tabling, losing sessions abound, so back to 2nl back to 6 tables back to winning. Then tried 8 tables yesterday (yes, yes it was happy hour) biggest win session for an hour at 2nl.

so is the reason (I) players do better when multi tabling because

a. have to concentrate more with more tables?
b. volume irons out the V word
c. more ABC less actual out thinking your self
d. a,c and c
e. other

Thoughts about your experience. Observations, or just pointing out the huge gaps in my thinking (supported by evidence) welcome.

I would like to see lots of different theories put forth (but with out the personal insults if possible)

thanks

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 12:52 PM
(#2)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Hey Grade,

I'm no grinder, but I can give you my thoughts (wrong or right)
Like you know, I play about 10 tables for 1 hour, that's as far as my grinding goes and these are some things I've noticed: (CASH GAMES ONLY)

The more tables you play, the less time you have to notice little things from other players, such as stack size, bet size, position, when you are NOT involve in the hand. What I mean is that when your table pops up for you to play and you have 29o, you click on fold and then the other table pops up, therefore you don't see what exactly happened on the other table.

Playing this way makes you play ABC poker. When the table opens up, you notice your position, your card rank and players you have notes on and then you make your decision. There isn't much bluffing going on, unless the notes on the players involve gives you that opportunity.

When playing up to 4 tables and you have them tiled, you can see all the action and make more aggressive decisions.

Playing at 25NL I see regularly 2-3 grinders at my tables, they're usually playing > 16 tables. What I've noticed is that for one, they will try to steal the blinds almost every time they are on the button, re-raise them they will fold (not always)

Also what I've noticed, and that's me, is that if I'm ahead by 2 table buy-ins, I will open up my range, be more aggressive, take more chances. Also after 20-30 minutes, I'm starting to know more about the players.

So yes the grinders (12 tables and more) will make a better profit per hour and I would conclude, it's because of ABC poker and rarely any bluffing. Also, since there's less time to think, less time to calculate, there's less time to plan a bluff or any sophisticated moves that would put you in trouble.

PS. Just finished my morning session. Played 1,091 hands at 25NL, made a profit of $138.31 and a BB/100 of 25.35. Wish all my sessions were like that...lol Will be posting my end of month blog soon.

 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:10 PM
(#3)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Hi Sand ,

Nice thoughts and nice session. Does this mean you have your tables stacked?

I have mine tiled, use a 2 screen set up.

so more ABC less bluffing...so any thoughts on a fresh newbee opening up 12 tables and playing on day one?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:31 PM
(#4)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
Hi Sand ,
Nice thoughts and nice session. Does this mean you have your tables stacked?
I have mine tiled, use a 2 screen set up.
so more ABC less bluffing...so any thoughts on a fresh newbee opening up 12 tables and playing on day one?

Grade b
My tables are tiled, I have a HP 2558, wide screen

Fresh newbee, That was me in January and I was playing 2 tables, than moved up to 4 later on, so 12 tables NO WAY. I'd say once you have become a positive player, than you can start increasing the number of tables. BUT you have to drop tables if you are losing.

 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 01:49 PM
(#5)
opium.nT's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 97
Hi Grade b!

12 tables are surely too many for someone who can't assess the situation quickly even while playing something like 4 tables. As for me, I tile 4 tables (6-max fast) and keep an eye on everything with nothing popping up and distracting me. It's not that hard to do that and go further than just ABC, at least at 2NL. Using soft like PT helps a ton, gathering the info about opps automatically.

Playing more tables simultaneously is better because you are almost never card dead. The influence of the dispersion is also somewhat reduced, although it can be like you win a big pot at the 1st table and lose at the 2nd.. anyway you have the opportunities because you play more hands, still keeping the tight aggressive style of course.
 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 03:48 PM
(#6)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
good thoughts opium.n.t.

May i ask though what is "dispersion"?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 04:26 PM
(#7)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hi B, just a notice mate, your confidence sounds down mate, and confidence counts for a lot, think possitive, do not think you are a bad player or bad deciisions start to happen.

I can not give you advice on multitable as I do not play, and to be honest am no longer sure about my own advice lol.

But I do know confidence is everything and thinking positive trusting your skills and judgement.

hope this helps m8t
 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 05:04 PM
(#8)
opium.nT's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 97
Dispersion influences your short term results greatly as it's generally about whether you're card dead or hitting the best. It makes the game unpredictable and ensures that no one can win every hand even against a total noob.

You can also check out "The Mental game of poker" by Jared Tendler as he talks about dispersion a lot in the book not to mention a ton of other useful things.
 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:41 PM
(#9)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
ty sir


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 09:44 PM
(#10)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
hi sandtrap,

I have been thinking about what you said, and i have to disagree. If play ABC on 12 tables the regs will eat me alive. After all allof them run HUD's, so will very quickly relise we am a BC player and explote that....


grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:12 PM
(#11)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
hi sandtrap,

I have been thinking about what you said, and i have to disagree. If play ABC on 12 tables the regs will eat me alive. After all allof them run HUD's, so will very quickly relise we am a BC player and explote that....

grade b
Grade, you've got to be kidding right?
Regulars, using HUD at 2NL......lol

Even when you reach the 25NL, you'll probably see 1 or 2 regulars and they probably are not running any HUD on 12 tables or more

I think regulars with HUD will be found on 50NL and higher, so you still have a way to go and you have time to learn the ABC of poker...lol

GL
 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:16 PM
(#12)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
well i run a hud at 2nl......

but are you saying that most do not?

so i can play ABC untill 50 Nl then switch it up.

what do others think here?


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 30, 2012, 10:58 PM
(#13)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
LOL
Don't get me started on HUD
You've seen my stats after almost 200,000 hands since the beginning of the year and I don't use any HUD. At 10 tables popping up non stop, I don't have time to read the info's on the HUD

But honestly, I got fck using the HUD for 2 weeks. I was taking those numbers for granted. Player with a fold to a raise of over 85% decides to call twice in a row with NOTHING. Just imagine a loose player as per your HUD who has become a better player. HUD is just a bunch of numbers that will help in part of your decision.

If you decide to go play live, how will you do without a HUD?

ABC is playing in position, playing the right cards, but you need to know when to fold..................hmmmmm sounds familiar....got to know when to fold them, you got to know when to hold them

Do not want to go into a debate about it
So do as you see fit and hope it works for you

Gl
 
Old
Default
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 08:31 AM
(#14)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
Grade, I have said this many times before and will repeat it again. STUDY more than you play until it becomes so second nature to you. No one can control variance .... good or bad but we can control how we play. Most of our plays will be based on the reads we have on our opponents.
Reads are key and the better the read the more optimally you will play. Whether this is done through observation or a HUD or both. Do you use ICM or sng wizard or do you take the time to evaluate your hands in a HUD post play?
Submit a tonne of hands to the HA thread and let your friends offer their opinions. There are many different ways to play and your style of play cannot be so rigged ( did I just say rigged LOL ) We all have a go to style but we need to change up our play based on the situation to be most effective.
Many times you will have no read on a player especially in zoom cash and thats where our experience and study will benefit us. The HUD is only a tool to assist. It can be used very effectively for those that take the time to set it up properly and learn its full potential.

Sandy I am not attempting to get into a war of words with you here but i think using a HUD for 2 weeks and making a decision based on that is like telling me you have a hand sample of 2000 hands and that you know your stats! If you choose not to use a HUD while playing that's fine! Don't. It's your right. It's all good.

 
Old
Default
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 04:31 PM
(#15)
opium.nT's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 97
I've used trial version of PT3 just for a week or so, then something happened and it stopped importing hands, nor auto neither manually. This means no HUD and other stuff, but I've soon discovered that it doesn't influence my results as in the very beginning (2NL) you don't really need that HUD to assess the table in general (tight or aggressive) or some players particularly. Paying attention is enough to discover it within several orbits, and I also like Sandtrap's thoughts about live games where you can only rely on your mind and assessment/reading skills.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com