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Help! Felix was playing 2nl Zoom and called my raise! :o

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Help! Felix was playing 2nl Zoom and called my raise! :o - Sat Aug 04, 2012, 05:18 PM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Maybe this is really babyish ... or maybe it's good poker sense, but I generally try to avoid playing against people who are way better than me

So I've been avoiding Felix at 2nl ... and then I got AKo in the cut-off and figured it would be lame to fold, because maybe he won't even call and then I'd be losing value. But then he called, and I flopped pretty strong.

You think I should have folded on the turn? Or definitely by the river? Or would most people still call ... I thought maybe he'd play a hand like AxQh the same way?




Added bonus for lols:
*** RIVER *** [Ah 3h 4h 9d] [6s]
TrustySam: checks
xflixx: bets $0.42
TrustySam said, "felix this is very scary! )"
TrustySam said, "ahhhh ...."
TrustySam: calls $0.42
 
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Sat Aug 04, 2012, 06:44 PM
(#2)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Oh ... I changed my mind - I don't think Felix would play AxQh the same way - because I'm a fish just like everybody else at 2nl and have problems folding TPTK. So if he were to have raised on the river with AxQh, I don't think he'd have made it that big.

I should have folded on the river, eh? That's kind of an ongoing leak with me - getting too attached to TPTK - Felix could have had any sort of suited connector as well ... so many hands that were beating me.

So hard to see things from the other person's point of view and what they might think we have, when we don't know what they have, and they don't know what we have. It's like several layers of ranging there ... so complex!


Always so much to learn with poker

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Aug 04, 2012 at 06:50 PM..
 
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Sat Aug 04, 2012, 08:08 PM
(#3)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Still more thoughts (lool!!) ...

So supposedly there's like 3 levels of awareness for post-flop play, or something like that?

Level 1 - is 'oooh, I made a hand!' ... we mostly look at just our cards
Level 2 - is a certain level of thought put into the other person's possible holdings ... ideally the entire range, and not just the good or just the bad?
Level 3 - trying to think about what the other person thinks we might have as well?


I think I'm somewhere between 1 and 2. Occasionally I may have little flickers of 3, but mostly it's more like a weak 2? And until I get to level 3, I like making up little 'rules of thumb' based on stuff I keep doing again and again that seem to wind up costing me a lot of money.

So like, maybe a little 'rule of thumb' I could use next time might be ...

RULE: With just TPTK, if the other players raises are getting bigger, and the board is super-wet, just fold. I call a lot more than I should and the number of times it's been a bluff instead of a value bet with a better hand is so small ... at 2nl zoom I think it's more EV to just assume we're beat unless we have reason to believe otherwise?

Anybody else play 2nl zoom ... you think that's a decent rule of thumb?

I'm tempting to say the rule should be: If you see Felix, just fold (LOL!!) but that's so babyish ... I'll never admit to doing that! Never!!
 
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Sun Aug 05, 2012, 05:20 AM
(#4)
TheAwesomeNW's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 474
I would definitely call, TPTK plus another 9 outs to the nut flush will be too strong to fold. Your bet on the flop will get weaker Aces like AQ or AJ, and flush draws to call. If Felix held Queen heart, I think he might call once (Felix pardon me if I'm wrong lol). So we're way ahead of most range. In this case, I guess it's unavoidable against a set. But still we lost the minimum
 
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Sun Aug 05, 2012, 06:03 AM
(#5)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
Hi Sam,

I am currently running a grinding up on Zoom challenge at IntelliPoker, so sorry for infesting your tables for some time^^

From your perspective this spot is very tough to play I have to admit. If I were in your shoes to play this hand OOP against myself I think I would consider two aspects in this hand: the technical way to play this hand with least possible room for mistakes against a thinking player, and then the metagame/image dynamic that might be going on.

Technically I think I would either barrel 3 streets for value or x/f the river, leaning more towards the latter. Reason is this: I would assume that a thinking player will not really call down too many non-nut hearts on two streets and since you have the there is only a few combos left of worse hands he can be valuebetting with - one of them being AQ, which needs to be discounted as he would sometimes 3bet that pre. If I checked the river that would leave his bluffing range close to 0 and his valuebetting range crushing mine most of the time.

Barreling the river for Value myself however might be too thin against a thinking player, but still a tad better than checking since I can at least represent busted hearts and maybe get looked up by AQ/AJ some of the time.

Now to decide if x/f or betting might be better I would consider the metastuff that might be going on here. I (in your shoes now) would assume that you (Felix) assumed I would be the type of player trying to play technically correct against a trainer whose videos I have watched. Of course there are also a lot of guys out there who just love to bluff the trainer in order to win a pot against him (which would tip the favor towards valuebetting the river myself), but I don't think you guys are of that type - you are all here to improve and become better poker players who wouldn't want their ego in their own way (now go ahead and exploit that image I got of you against me haha).

Given this assumption, I would see no real value in betting the river but at the same time I would not assume my trainer is peeling light and bluffing rivers against me in a Zoom game at 2NL where money is made so much easier in other spots - so this would make me x/f the river.

Hope that made sense, I know it's gotten quite long and complicated with those switched perspectives lol

GL at the tables Sam!


Live Trainer



 
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Sun Aug 05, 2012, 01:46 PM
(#6)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
I'm so glad I decided to play my hand instead of fold (lol!), because I guess there's more to be made $-wise against worse players ... but there's more to be learned from better, eh?

It's great because sometimes I guess it's easy to get in the habit of just playing and playing, and maybe not stopping to reflect on hands in too much depth unless something stops to make you think?

That idea of keeping the initiative on the turn and how raising can help clarify where we stand is neat - I guess it puts more pressure on the other person to try and decide if they're good, and also better masks our hand? I never thought if it that way - usually i guess I've just been raising when I think I'm ahead, and checking when I'm not sure ... but then I wind up calling anyways, so I guess I might as well just raised myself if I was going to call, eh? D'oh!

After I checked on the turn, I thought I saw you pause like you seemed surprised that I stopped raising - which made me wonder if I was supposed to keep going. But I wasn't sure why, so that's so cool to get to hear what the benefits were


The metagame thingie was so surreal - I felt like I was in the middle of one of your videos! I didn't know what to make of it, because my game's not that sophisticated that way - mostly I just play my cards. But I did wonder a bit what you might be thinking about me playing you (except I probably wouldn't have played the hand if I had known ahead of time that you were gonna call LOL!! ). Because I was just watching one of your grinding up through the micros videos the other day, and there was that guy MEV-Paul who was attending your course and playing at the table with you the same time and shoved with 72o. Such a strange thing to do ... but yeah, I was just playing my cards, and I never got the sense that you were doing anything other than that either with your raises ... I just couldn't let go of my hand


So glad I wound up playing this hand - I feel so lucky to have had the opportunity to get all this feedback. Like I feel like it's opened up a whole new level of insight there, so thanks Felix!!


PS Please feel free to keep playing around me just like regular ... maybe if I get AA I might call one of your raises ... (or not ... )

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 01:55 PM..
 
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AA - Sun Aug 05, 2012, 04:39 PM
(#7)
bearxing's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 499
Do not call him with AA, reraise!! Put the pressure on him.

Good luck
Doug


3 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Aug 06, 2012, 12:20 AM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Oh ... haha! Hi Bearxing ...

I guess I just said call out of habit, because a lot of the time the tables can be so tight, if you 3-bet with AA people will just fold. So instead sometimes I 3bet with my so-so hands, and then just call with my better ones. Like I tried varying my raise sizes with AA, and I could swear that sometimes mixing up raise sizes to include just calls is +EV at 2nl zoom? For me at least?

I would have thought the weird part that would have stood out for you would have been me saying that maybe I'd call with AA ... like how many times do any of us have to think about playing AA? But they're only 2 cards ... I'd still have to play post-flop, etc.

And if you could see some of the people in the general pool of players at 2nl ... like most of the time people play very tight, but other times ... you just can't even believe some of the stuff you see. I could swear there's easier ways to win pots with lesser hands against lesser opponents. Like take this person ... I'm not sure if they were fully sober or what

TonyDeathBr said, "K 5 spades i like spades spades kill"
TonyDeathBr: raises $4.89 to $4.91 and is all-in
t33np0k3r: folds
guedar12: folds
65126: folds
TrustySam: calls $1.99 and is all-in







Been using today as a study day to download more videos and go through hand histories of some of my biggest losses, make notes of things to do differently next time, etc. Kind of hard having to look at all that money going in the other direction - ouch! But wow, what an eye-opener it's been! Wish I hadn't put it off for so long ... d'oh!!! Gonna watch more vids next!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Mon Aug 06, 2012 at 12:41 AM..
 

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