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15th of 4,042 - FPP MTT - but no FT

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15th of 4,042 - FPP MTT - but no FT - Mon Aug 06, 2012, 04:43 PM
(#1)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
15th of 4,042 entrants wasn't bad - but could have been so much better



EdinFreeMan finished the tournament in 15th place and received $4.50.
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 686909 Main pot 501791. Side pot 185118. | Rake 0
Board [Jh Kh 9d 3d 7c]
Seat 1: farida80 showed [Jd Jc] and won (686909) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 3: ZANOZA76RUS folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: EdinFreeMan showed [Ah Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 5: kot50 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: RYAN MUFC1 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: VK469 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Anglerjung showed [8s 8c] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 9: LICKICAT folded before Flop (didn't bet)


How many times do I need to get to this position before I make the FT?

This pot would have put me 3rd of 14 if the aces held, with potential for the top 3 prizes

1st $157.00
2nd $117.00
3rd $82.50

$4.50 isn't bad for a 20FPP buy-in - but it could have been so much better.

Ed
 
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Tue Aug 07, 2012, 12:46 AM
(#2)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
great game Ed, HUGE suck out

We just have to keep grinding and grinding and grinding.

Just always make yourself in a position to win and let the baby poker gods handle the rest when it's ALL IN time we have no control of the results no matter how big we are the favorites.

good job
 
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Tue Aug 07, 2012, 12:54 AM
(#3)
Roy1313714's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 72
BronzeStar
Well Done Sir ! Its a funny game, you can beat over 99% of the players
and feel crushed. Again great job!
 
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Tue Aug 07, 2012, 01:38 AM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,822
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Great job Ed!

Any finish in the top 1% is a great run.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Aug 07, 2012, 06:51 AM
(#5)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
A very big unlucky Edin , that was the make or break hand.

3 way preflop cooler, not any respectible player would fold or probably would of played it different with the 3 hands that were dealt out.

I know what you mean Ed, how many times you have to get there just for something like this to happen.

I think the truth of poker is, its not just about final tables and first places, its more to do with itm,

anything after itm is a bonus.

I think if we look at the game from an itm view, we actually win more than trying to win what ever we play in.

To be honest Ed, this is the reason and the whys of some of my reasons i look for new ways and styles and plays,

I know, each and every structure as a set way you can play to make itm most of the time,

E.g average stack size per amount of runners to itm,

this gives us a rough idea at any given time in a game, if we need to do anything, or can we sit tight etc.

Good result Ed, very unlucky, curiosity how many times did you have aces in that tourney can u remember?
 
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Tue Aug 07, 2012, 01:19 PM
(#6)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
cheers all

For the 2nd day in a row my aces cannot win a 3 way pot.

Just past the bubble here and short stacked so tried to induce from UTG.

Got the action but not the board.



a few more cents - $0.48 - from my FPPs so still rebuilding thestack.

Ed

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Tue Aug 07, 2012 at 01:21 PM..
 
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Tue Aug 07, 2012, 03:42 PM
(#7)
m.bisland's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,260
BronzeStar
Unlucky

hear your building your roll from scratch again , How u getting on ?
 
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Tue Aug 07, 2012, 03:51 PM
(#8)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by m.bisland View Post
Unlucky

hear your building your roll from scratch again , How u getting on ?
Up to just over $22 ($9 cash + $13 T-money) having used about half the 1,000 FPPs I started with.

need to track down my thread of that bankroll rebuild challenge and add some detail. Not played much cash buy-ins or cash ring games, which I will do once I have enough to mutli-table some 2nl sessions.

Ed
 
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Tue Aug 07, 2012, 05:03 PM
(#9)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
A very big unlucky Edin , that was the make or break hand.

3 way preflop cooler, not any respectible player would fold or probably would of played it different with the 3 hands that were dealt out.

I know what you mean Ed, how many times you have to get there just for something like this to happen.

I think the truth of poker is, its not just about final tables and first places, its more to do with itm,

anything after itm is a bonus.

I think if we look at the game from an itm view, we actually win more than trying to win what ever we play in. These two lines here see below as topic #1.

To be honest Ed, this is the reason and the whys of some of my reasons i look for new ways and styles and plays,

I know, each and every structure as a set way you can play to make itm most of the time,

E.g average stack size per amount of runners to itm,

this gives us a rough idea at any given time in a game, if we need to do anything, or can we sit tight etc. See the previous 4 lines as topic #2.

Good result Ed, very unlucky, curiosity how many times did you have aces in that tourney can u remember?

Topic #1: ITM versus deep runs/FT's/wins:

As far as it pertains to MTT's (real MTT's...not multi-table SNG's...) you could not be more wrong about this if you tried.

I'll prove this to you and anyone who believes this using your best result in an MTT on Stars and some group results of mine.

You first:

You had a 4th in a $1.10 MTT back in March,4th out of 3659 runners to be exact (excellent result BTW...). You were paid $201 for your $1.10 investment,or almost 183 times your buy-in back.

Now let's look at a similar sized $1.10 running right this minute (as I type this post...). It has 3346 runners and 4th pays $192.39,or 175 times the $1.10 buy in, A min cash on the other hand pays $1.53,or 1.39 times the buy in. In other words it would take 126 min-cashes at $1.53 to equal that $192.39 that 4th would pay.

How long would it take you to amass 126 min-cashes in comparably sized $1.10 MTT's? 6 months? A year? 2 Years? More?

Here's another,and to me the most pertinent,way to look at it.

At $1.53 for a payout to min-cash in this versus a $1.10 buy-in one would have to min-cash roughly 72% of the time to just break even. To "only" have to min-cash 50% of the time to break even we would have to make it to,on average,the 12th cash out level (even this would actually leave us a couple pennies short---$2.17 versus $2.20 for 2 buy-ins at $1.10).

Needless to say anyone thinking that they can min-cash 72% of the time,or make the 12th buy out level at least 50% of the time is being ridiculous.

And to show just how ridiculous I'll use my stats for 2 games---the .10 ($50 added) and .25 ($100 added) MTT's.

First using these is even MORE illustrative of the folly of playing for min-cashes as these 2 tourneys are about as forgiving towards that idea as possible since they both add money to the prize pool---adding $50 to the .10 MTT is the equivalent of having another 500 runners in the tourney who you don't actually have to fade,$100 in the .25 MTT is the equivalent of 400 non-existent runners.

I played 69 of the .10 ($50 added) MTT's and made ITM 31 times---30.44% ITM. I think anyone would agree that 30.44% is a high ITM percentage for any MTT.

So I laid out $6.90 in buy-ins. My return was $5.16,a loss of $1.84 for a ROI of minus 27%. And that's making ITM 30.44% of the time.

How about if I had instead just made ITM ONE time but it was for a 4th place finish? Well there's a .10 ($50 added) running right now and it pays $21.39 for 4th. That would be a profit of $14.49 and a ROI of plus 210%.

Which would you prefer?

For the .25 ($100 added) MTT I played 78 of them and cashed 36 times---an unsustainable IMO ITM percentage of 46.2%. I paid in $19.50 in buy-ins and won a return of $58.66,a profit of $39.16 for a ROI of plus 201%.

In these I had a 4th place finish for $33 and an 11th for $4.32. Now take those 2 finishes and make them min-cashes for say $0.40 each (which was about the normal min-cash in that tourney when I played them...). That would mean my return would drop from $58.66 to $22.14,or a profit of $2.64 and a plus 13.5%.

Do you or anyone else think you can make ITM 46% of the time over a large sample. I highly doubt I could have kept that number up myself (when Americans get back on here for $ I guarantee that I won't keep it up as I know for a fact that I HAD to have passed on some +EV tourney spots to achieve that number...).

This concludes topic #1.


Topic # 2: Play styles and strategies to ensure high min-cash percentages in MTT's.


Quite simply whatever strategies you are developing to try to be a high percentage min-casher in MTT's you need to jettison immediately. I should hope that I've shown you the sheer folly of this in Topic #1.

I'm NOT talking about multi-table SNG's here...anywhere from 18 to 180 runners. Those are a completely different animal simply on their payout structure alone. The rewards for min-cashing are much better in them. This is about large field MTT's.

Simple,simple,simple---NO strategy that is putting the onus on min-cashing above running deep is EVER going to be profitable over a large sample in large field MTT's.

That is not to say that one should be reckless or eschew a possible min-cash in a short stacked situation. Yes,grind and stall for everything you're worth in those spots and in spots where you're running better and have acquired chips you don't want to leak them off haphazardly.

But if one is passing on +EV spots and sensible spots for taking big flips that could set them up for a deep run because they are afraid to risk a min-cash then they will NEVER be profitable in large field MTT's. That's just the plain reality of the situation.

As for focusing on average chip stack or one's place in the field too much (or at all even...)--- DON'T.

Where your stack is in relation to average chip stack CANNOT put you on the rail. Where your stack is in relation to the blinds CAN. The blinds and antes are the ONLY thing that can ever force you out of a tournament. Average chip stack is a nice barometer but it should never be a big influence on your play. Table dynamics,effective stack sizes on YOUR table and other factors are much more important.
 
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Tue Aug 07, 2012, 05:04 PM
(#10)
m.bisland's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,260
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
Up to just over $22 ($9 cash + $13 T-money) having used about half the 1,000 FPPs I started with.

need to track down my thread of that bankroll rebuild challenge and add some detail. Not played much cash buy-ins or cash ring games, which I will do once I have enough to mutli-table some 2nl sessions.

Ed
Good stuff edd keep it up
 
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Tue Aug 07, 2012, 05:13 PM
(#11)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
15th of 4,042 entrants wasn't bad - but could have been so much better



EdinFreeMan finished the tournament in 15th place and received $4.50.
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 686909 Main pot 501791. Side pot 185118. | Rake 0
Board [Jh Kh 9d 3d 7c]
Seat 1: farida80 showed [Jd Jc] and won (686909) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 3: ZANOZA76RUS folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: EdinFreeMan showed [Ah Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 5: kot50 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: RYAN MUFC1 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: VK469 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Anglerjung showed [8s 8c] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 9: LICKICAT folded before Flop (didn't bet)


How many times do I need to get to this position before I make the FT?

This pot would have put me 3rd of 14 if the aces held, with potential for the top 3 prizes

1st $157.00
2nd $117.00
3rd $82.50

$4.50 isn't bad for a 20FPP buy-in - but it could have been so much better.

Ed

Amazing how elated and deflated one can feel at the same time from a result in this game isn't it Ed?

On the one hand you feel the sense of accomplishment and pride for having made it to 15th out of 4000+ runners (as you SHOULD...excellent result ), but on the other hand you know that chances like this don't come along very often so when we do run deep and don't get to the big money it hurts more than pretty much anything else in this game.

Just keep plugging away at it Ed and keep giving yourself the opportunities and sooner or later you'll be the dog whose butt it is that the sun is due to shine on.

May it shine brightly.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Tue Aug 07, 2012 at 05:15 PM..
 

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