Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

those danged notes

Old
Default
those danged notes - Tue Aug 07, 2012, 07:26 PM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
One of the biggest changes when i make notes is Tags changing to Passive players,

so just wondering at what ponit is the difference between a Passive player and an aggressive player?


Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Tue Aug 07, 2012, 07:56 PM
(#2)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Wow, I'm so tempted to say something about passive agression, but JWK might frown upon that ...
 
Old
Default
Tue Aug 07, 2012, 08:02 PM
(#3)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
When I cared about tracking stats, I used the percentage of PFR to VPIP. 25% and below I considered passive. Above 25% to 50% was neutral and above 50% was aggressive. I found the best success about 75% with a full table and not being short stacked.

Remember: "Raise more than call and fold more than raise." -- former PSO Dean Al SPath
 
Old
Default
Tue Aug 07, 2012, 08:59 PM
(#4)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
ty Trumping Joe,

that makes sense i will look at that. What if a player has stats of 4/4 I have them marked as agressive rather than passive just becase tehy are only betting when they have good hand rather than playing hand passively

Grade b

**deleted comment**


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by CannonLee; Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 12:20 AM.. Reason: flame war
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 09:42 AM
(#5)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hey B, as you know I do not make player notes,

My reason for this is not just a change in styles, but more consideration for what mood the player is in.

Suppose you make notes on what you think to be a laggy donk player,

The next time you meet up you thiink hes a donk from notes, however this time the guy/girl is sober....

etc etc, can you see my point.

We can not see the opps, as with live play, where you know if the player is looking tired etc..

Make visual notes B, watching every player every move on every occasion,

I.e stop multitabling it is not a good thing

Last edited by holdemace486; Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 09:42 AM.. Reason: typo
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 09:53 AM
(#6)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Hi Holdemace,

How do you know if a player is drunk of just bad?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 10:32 AM
(#7)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Hi B, we could never truly know,

We also could never know if that player we are playing is even that player.

They could be out on the town and let their kids on for all we know.

This is why I stress in saying just watch it,and watch whats happening, on that given occasion.

Previous reads for example of some1 who is on a tilt and the next time you meet they got their a-game on.

Be weary B, dont rely on player notes 100% unless you have lots and lots of games against them to judge them.
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 10:40 AM
(#8)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
so are you saying once you have lots of games to judge someone you make a physical note?

Don't you find starting from scratch every session to be a pain?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 10:56 AM
(#9)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
No b, if you use tracker software and hud make sure you use how many games and not how many hands you have played, but how many times you have seen this player.

hope you follow that mate

And no , I find it it easy to get a read by just watching B, I mostly do not remember who I have played, but occasionly remember a name or a pic.

I watch what is happening in the game I am playing, watching each person as it goes around.

Looking for time tells, bet tells, card tells, limpers, etc I have loads I look for that just helps.

Like you would with live play B,

I can win but the concentration level is immense to do it all the time, thats what its about B, those who pay the most attention, full on concentration like a chess game.
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 11:06 AM
(#10)
alanj28's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 138
There is an advantage on taking notes but i dont bother for some of the same reasons holdemace has stated. Notes can be bad in some spots. I try to get reads just from the action i see in that game and stack sizes the dynamics of the table etc. Dont get me wrong notes are good if used correctly and i would use them if i played higher stakes online.


 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 01:24 PM
(#11)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
ty Trumping Joe,

that makes sense i will look at that. What if a player has stats of 4/4 I have them marked as agressive rather than passive just becase tehy are only betting when they have good hand rather than playing hand passively

Grade b
There will always be exception to any rule and those cases are handled individually. An aggressive ultra-nit is fairly exploitable on deep money as they tend to get married to there hands so they are great candidates to set mine or play suited connectors and other implied odds hands against.
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 09, 2012, 12:28 AM
(#12)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
Date all your notes, that helps a lot. No one is saying that notes from 2 months ago are going to help you, but you gotta start somewhere. My notes are constantly evolving as I observe more and more games.

The competition is tough out there, you have to take advantage of any edge you can get. Knowing that your opponent might open shove any Ace can be a huge advantage.

 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 09, 2012, 01:04 AM
(#13)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Hey B, as you know I do not make player notes,

My reason for this is not just a change in styles, but more consideration for what mood the player is in.

Suppose you make notes on what you think to be a laggy donk player,

The next time you meet up you thiink hes a donk from notes, however this time the guy/girl is sober....

etc etc, can you see my point. What if they're on LSD and they're peaking? Do you have a read for that you can share? I think I've been up against players who are in the past but I'm not sure. I just know that peeps who seem to be tripping balls kick my butt everytime.

We can not see the opps, as with live play, where you know if the player is looking tired etc..

Make visual notes B, watching every player every move on every occasion, Visual notes? Like what,their avatar?

I.e stop multitabling it is not a good thing
Says you... Please don't project what you cannot do as the rule for everyone else. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Hi B, we could never truly know,

We also could never know if that player we are playing is even that player.

They could be out on the town and let their kids on for all we know. Are you saying that you have done this? Just wondering?

This is why I stress in saying just watch it,and watch whats happening, on that given occasion.

Previous reads for example of some1 who is on a tilt and the next time you meet they got their a-game on.

Be weary B, dont rely on player notes 100% unless you have lots and lots of games against them to judge them. I agree with this. Reads trump notes and notes gathered over a large sample trump notes gathered over smaller samples.
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
No b, if you use tracker software and hud make sure you use how many games and not how many hands you have played, but how many times you have seen this player.

hope you follow that mate Um,no. Use all three actually.

And no , I find it it easy to get a read by just watching B, I mostly do not remember who I have played, but occasionly remember a name or a pic. So now you're saying you DON'T take notes?

I watch what is happening in the game I am playing, watching each person as it goes around.

Looking for time tells, bet tells, card tells, limpers, etc I have loads I look for that just helps. Uh,yeah. Those are tells. They should be a part of your NOTES. Just watch for people who may "false flag" you...


Like you would with live play B, This AIN'T live. It ain't Memorex. It's online poker. Same rules,same goals,DIFFERENT game in many ways.

I can win but the concentration level is immense to do it all the time, thats what its about B, those who pay the most attention, full on concentration like a chess game.
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 09, 2012, 09:26 AM
(#14)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Strange mox how you were compelled to pull my post apart.

Have i left my kids on my poker when I go out, wow, at 4 and 5 that would be impressive to say the least.
No mox, no one but me uses my account, but I bet there are many who do let others on their accounts.

And no I do not write notes, there is no point in my eyes at the lower stakes.

And Isd, lol probably is players on here,but again with not visualy seeing the player we will never know.

AS to visual notes, its visual notes per game, my reads are then, the present, not the past.

Players improve and all sorts.

Now and again I reconize a name, and normally remember or within a few hands remember the player.

So on and so on.

Hope i missed nothing there mox, and curiously how come I have not seen you in pso events?
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 09, 2012, 10:03 AM
(#15)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
BronzeStar
Alright, the old hedgehog would like to put in his wooden nickel regarding notes.




First thing I did when I discovered this feature was come up with general catagories, such as maniac, always raises, or very aggressive. If I run into a player that meets the criteria, I color code him. Depending on the time and my feeling, I'll add some note. For example, the person I labled a maniac might do that if they have two royal cards.

Its the subsequent time that comes into play in this discussion. Those players with tracking software have an advantage since the software tracks these things far more efficiently than a person can. I'm thinking the better you become using such tracking software, the better the notes and reads.

Are such second meetings helped by such notes? I use the notes as an early warning system, not a racial profile thing. However, if I labled a person "any ace wins," and they are playing that way in this game, I'll add a note that reads "did this in X games." The higher the number represented by X, the more relience I have on my read.

Like you said, you don't know if the person had a particularly bad day when you first met them. That note about his aggression might have been from the day he kept hitting high pockets or perfect flops. Today, he's not getting anything above group 5. That'll put a crimp in his aggression.

What I'm saying in a very round about way is that notes are an aid, not something carved in stone. Use what you have as a guide, but be ready to react to changing circumstances. No two situations in poker are ever exactly alike. Judgment is necessary.


As a final note, let me also add that after some 350+ games, I have notes on maybe five players. I have maybe a hundred color coded, but I haven't met all of them a second or third time. Some of my notes are of a personal nature, such as "trash talker - very insulting." They help me keep his comments in perspective if and when I meet them again.

Last edited by Cairn Destop; Thu Aug 09, 2012 at 10:10 AM.. Reason: last comment added
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 09, 2012, 10:51 AM
(#16)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
ty every one.

Have to say i tend to be very much like Cairn. I have more color notes than written notes. That said PT4 does keep its own notes such as
"donked flop with 1 pair or less"
"called 3 bet from Blinds with Q4s, 82o(2)"

which can be nice but has been stated is not an absolute indicator of future behavior but rather a early warning system.

Also it was suggested I drop 5 of my tables and concentrate on playing like its Live. I have played once live for my 40th Birthday and currently have no plans to do so some very happy that PT4 is guiding my steps on reads.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 09, 2012, 11:25 AM
(#17)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Nice b. Don't ever stop taking notes, and just use them, as you know, as a starting point. Nothing will ever replace "in the moment" observation, but u WILL have immediate "indicators" to go by. Nice that pt4 takes those kind of notes too. I'll have to check it out if I ever am able to get back here to play for real. color codes are also a goodstarting point, especially if you've seen someone do whatever your code means on several occasions. As for notes on commentary, the only note I might take about that might be "uses chat to influance play" or "prone to tilt when loses a hand or 2" etc. GL out there, MT


May the tinfoil protect you. MT
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 09, 2012, 03:02 PM
(#18)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemace486 View Post
Strange mox how you were compelled to pull my post apart.

Have i left my kids on my poker when I go out, wow, at 4 and 5 that would be impressive to say the least.
No mox, no one but me uses my account, but I bet there are many who do let others on their accounts.

And no I do not write notes, there is no point in my eyes at the lower stakes.

And Isd, lol probably is players on here,but again with not visualy seeing the player we will never know.

AS to visual notes, its visual notes per game, my reads are then, the present, not the past.

Players improve and all sorts.

Now and again I reconize a name, and normally remember or within a few hands remember the player.

So on and so on.

Hope i missed nothing there mox, and curiously how come I have not seen you in pso events?

Strange holdem,how in a forum in a POKER SCHOOL you seem to be under the impression that you have carte blanche to put your dubious,at best,proclamations out there and have them go unchallenged.

You go back and read my post again you'll see that I AGREED with some of what you said. Some I asked you direct questions because you were making statements that seemed to contradict each other. And some others,like making a ridiculous blanket statement to "stop multitabling it is not a good thing", I'm going to challenge. And a couple I was ribbing you to be honest.

This is a SCHOOL holdem,if you want to put erroneous opinions of yours out there as if they're facts then be prepared to have them challenged. Any post I ever make here I'm fully prepared to have the same happen to me. And when it does it usually equates to me learning something new. You have it happen to you and it's straight to deflect mode.

Speaking of deflection---are you really trying to get a rise out of me asking why I'm not playing in some PLAY MONEY series here? LMFAO

A: Play money bores the living Hell out of me. I do the Tank games when the mood hits me as my friends are there. I do my 45 man sets when the mood hits me since they do have some practice applications to the real thing.

Mostly I use the US players downtime here to STUDY. When I do play it's on MY time,not some artificial schedule that someone else decided.

B: If you care to see how I did when US players could compete here in PSO for money and I was grinding then,by all means feel free to go to the homepage here and in the leaderboard options menu click on PSO Skill League. You can find my results from August 2010 through March 2011. Also unlike yourself my FULL OPR stats (since you're so obsessed with that site and your ladder ranking...) are on display. So feel free there as well.

C: When US players can return here for money any time you want a piece of me I won't be hard to find.
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 09, 2012, 07:43 PM
(#19)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Great post moxie, why should my post go unchallenged?

I am telling grade b and every one else the way i do it, not telling any one to do it, just the way I do it.

Well mainly,

So mox you think loosing players should multitable when they can not win on one table?

So me telling people as a fact not to multitable if you are loosing is bad advice?

Even though i state no fact

And no mox, I am not trying to get a rise from you, it was a genuine question, I would of loved to see you there and play against you.

Any way i will leave it at that getting mixed between posts now.
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 09, 2012, 08:19 PM
(#20)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Actually if you go to the "OK" thread of yours you would clearly see that I say to NOT multi-table if you're a losing player,study and get good enough to win consistently over a large sample on one table first and then try opening a second. And so on. So why you would ask if I condone that losing players multi-table is beyond me.

Why do YOU assume that B is a losing player? I'm pretty sure he isn't.

Also you yourself have never in any of your "don't multi-table,it's a bad thing" posts made a distinction between losing and winning players. You simply make a blanket statement---multi-tabling is bad. Not with the disclaimer of "in my opinion" or anything like it but "stop multitabling it is not a good thing".

That's YOU making a statement of fact (fact at least as YOU see it...).

And so the pattern continues...


Sorry to have hi-jacked your thread with this B but someone has to answer this (pejorative excluded...).
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com