Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Tournament Section (MTTs & STTs) /

JJ in BB CO shoves

Old
Default
JJ in BB CO shoves - Wed Aug 08, 2012, 09:49 AM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604


In the Flame 6 max.

My read on TrustySam is she plays a little loose, But this is 6-max and i normally play full ring.

She has stats of 30/17 but is also down to around 7 big blinds.

So what would you do the the Jacks?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 09:56 AM
(#2)
doomasiggy's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 48
Call imo. With her stack and with the relative stack sizes she should be shoving fairly wide i.e 77+/KQ+. You'll be ahead or flipping most of the time so I think this is a snap call; especially in 6-max where people are wider in general.

Last edited by doomasiggy; Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 09:58 AM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 10:47 AM
(#3)
ChewMe1's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 574
Hey Grade b

Here's what I would do.

Click the call button, and click it fast!!!


We are lightyears ahead of a 7 big blind shoving range. The villain, in this case happens to be TrusySam will be shoving a massive range of hands like suited connectors/any broadway/Ax/22+.

Folding would be a pretty big mistake, I hope you made the call
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 11:22 AM
(#4)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Ty both,

For the record i did hit Call.

I find the 6 - max animal to be very differant from full ring, so was just checking.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 11:24 AM
(#5)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
And what happened?

TC
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 11:28 AM
(#6)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 11:37 AM
(#7)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Nice one B but I am sure you were worried when Sam hit her K on the flop
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 12:37 PM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post

I find the 6 - max animal to be very differant from full ring, so was just checking.
I don't know if anybody who happened to catch our backs and forth over the last couple of days is going to believe that.

I get the sense ... do you think you're a better player than me? And we've been playing so many of the same games at the same time. And we both put quite a bit of effort into study and stuff. Do you ... maybe resent a little the fact that like ... I'm making some money playing some of this stuff?


In any case, since I've been playing cash games, I haven't looked at Spacegravy's push/fold charts in ages. But when I watch videos, I take extensive notes until I've internalized not just the substantive info, but also as much of the thought processes as I can. So that's where I get my push/fold ranges from. And if you'll recall, in the video, since Grayson's charts are for 10bb's and 5bb's, early/middle/late position, 9-handed, he was extrapolating for points that fell in-between categories, as 7bb's in mid-late does. Hence, with the following guidelines for 10bb's and 5bb's in early/middle/late position, 6-handed ...





K5s+ is half-way between K8s+ for late position and 10bb's, and K3s+ for middle position and 5bb's ... hence the shove.

The reason this is considered profitable if you'll recall from the video is because when players call, there's only one way to win, and so if the button and blinds only call with like a 10-15% range because they'd rather shove themselves than call somebody else's shove ... like K5s's expected to pick up the blinds and antes uncontested the majority of the time. And when it gets called, there's still some pot equity with the K high and flush draws.


Those stats of mine must come from the STT we played, because I don't recall us ever playing at the same table any other time? 30/17 is LOW for what I usually had when making final 2, because usually my stats were more like 38/28 by following the Spacegravy charts. I could swear I had to dial it way back because you were on my left and were calling everything. Which is the opposite of somebody worrying about calling to wide with JJ on 10bb's.

What would you have done with A9o in the bb Grade b? Call/fold? And why?

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 12:42 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 04:08 PM
(#9)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
ty Sam good to know i did something right.


Will try and bare that in mind in tonight's 6-max, but as i say i find full ring much easier.


Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by Grade b; Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 04:15 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 05:44 PM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
I saw this civil response made for public consumption, then went to my PM inbox and sure enough there was a PM from grade b teeming with hate and vitriol ... the angry ones never pick on the alpha guy, they always kick the cat ... :/

One other factor I considered Grade b was the fact that you appeared to be playing for points - which might not have in fact been true because I didn't check the leaderboard. But since I did have the impression that you might tend to call a little wider than most people, I thought the fact that ITM is more significant than just a mere min-cash might have tended to make you a little tighter than usual.

But that might have been a mistaken assumption. I have been using that as a factor though, and maybe some others are too, I don't know ...
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 06:29 PM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
In the Flame 6 max.

My read on TrustySam is she plays a little loose, But this is 6-max and i normally play full ring.

She has stats of 30/17 but is also down to around 7 big blinds.

So what would you do the the Jacks?

Grade b

I just noticed you started calling me 'she' instead of 'dude'. Maybe it's just for public consumption, and ... well the PSO series is almost over, so it'll be easier to avoid each other after it is, so the issue would be moot.

But thank you for that.
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 06:33 PM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Oh I just watched the replay ... I had K6s, not K5s ... even stronger than I thought!

LOL I've been trying to not make crawling over the line for a min-cash the be-all and end-all of tourney play. Just to try things out for a change. And with 7bb's I felt like this might be my last shot to preserve my fold equity, so maybe I'd go for that this time instead. But, like those Spacegravy charts are for STT's, and this was an MTT and we were close to the bubble, so even though this hand was on the chart ... maybe it wasn't the ideal play to shove, I'm not sure. Still trying to figure this sort of stuff out. Maybe it's one of those hands that was right on the edge and it would have been okay to go either way? Not sure ...

Sam
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 07:18 PM
(#13)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Not sure that relping to your Pm can be called hate and vitroil. I dont actually know what vitroil is but as i said earlier no hate there.

Would i call with A9 o Probably not however two factors may cuase me to call

1. your all reday all in so i will not be forced to call fold if i miss.

2. you only have 7bb so if you are playing any ace or even better worse than any ace on average A9 is in good shape.

As to you having to tighten up you must have caught me during a good run of cards. Just checked my stats and overall for the tournment i had stats of 17/16.


see you at the 6 max in 10minutes.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 08:17 PM
(#14)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Oh ... I asked the A9o question before I noticed that you were referring to me as 'she' and not 'dude', which means a lot to me. To be honest, like I said in the last email, if you feel the need to have the last word, you can have it. I'd like to think it was a conciliatory PM, and I'm afraid that if I read it I'll be disappointed, so I felt it might be better to just let it go unread.

I put up A9o at the time to better flesh out your motives for posting this hand - because if you were to think a call with A9o was fine, then why would you be conflicted about calling with JJ since A9o is part of a range twice as wide. But at this point, why don't we just focus on the poker ...



So, since this an MTT and not an STT, we can't use an ICM calculator and just have pot odds. And plugging the following ranges in pokerstove, you get the following pre-flop odds:

1. The Spacegravy recommended push-fold range for 7bb's in the cut-off:


2. The pokerstove range that includes A9o as the very lowest hand for the range ... 18.6%:


3. The pre-flop odds of the ranges of (1) versus (2):




So it's +EV to call with A9o against the Spacegravy range - but it's more or less a flip.


And just for comparison, here's the hands that would be part of a 10% range:
4.

Giving the following pre-flop odds of the ranges of (1) versus (4):
5.


And ... I did a lot of ICM calculations, and generally the recommended calling range the calcs were giving were more like 10% one, so that with a call the hand goes into an all-in with a 2:1 advantage? I guess because of that thingie about when we call there's only one way to win, whereas when somebody shoves there's two? So I don't know ... maybe A9o is like right on that line ... like it's definitely +EV and stuff?


I don't know ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 08:22 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 08:24 PM
(#15)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
so although A9 may be on the line, I was thinking of the sandwich effect for well both A9 and JJ.

I would prob not be happy raising A9o on the BB so to call an all in just grates on my nerve.

At the time i was happy with my JJ call but like most hands there are times when you second guess yourself.


have to say ICM is one thing i could never wrap my head around which is why i switched to cash games.


Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Wed Aug 08, 2012, 08:31 PM
(#16)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
The poker learning curve must be way faster for people who studied math through school, since then people only have to learn poker stuff. Otherwise there'd be the math and then the poker stuff.

If poker required an in-depth knowledge of history and geography though, wow, that would be a colossal struggle for everybody else ... like I guess we all only had the chance to learn so much in school, eh?

So I guess it just takes time, but where there's a will there's a way. You know there's somebody on Team Online that's only been playing a couple of years ... bjoerni. Can you believe it? We're still playing at 2nl and he plays $1000 hyper-turbos ... how is that possible???? LOL LOL!!!

I guess we all just do the best we can ... there's been so many people who have started off white-hot and super-motivated who have come and gone over the last year+ ... I feel like the fact that some of us have stuck it out must count for something

Sam

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Aug 08, 2012 at 08:34 PM..
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com