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2nl Zoom - QTs OTB. Bet or check the turn?

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2nl Zoom - QTs OTB. Bet or check the turn? - Tue Aug 21, 2012, 08:20 PM
(#1)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
More zoom adventures and this means more unknows. (Kind of liking it as it makes writing these easier )

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Anyway I pick up QTs on the BTN and the CO limps I think this is a pretty standard spot to raise for value; I have position; I gain initiative; and he limped which signals weakness.

The flop comes down A high and I flop middle pair, the villain checks and again this seems like another standard spot to bet for value. He has loads of worse hands that he can call with such as small-medium PP's, SC's and gappers that contain a 5, straight draws. I thus make a standard 2/3 pot value bet.

He calls and the turn comes the 6h, now I have middle pair and a flush draw and I feel he still has lots of hands in his range that can call a bet, is this correct or am I being too optimisitc? So it seems a pretty good spot to bet and tbh this is a spot that I am betting nearly all the time for value. However by betting am I being too aggressive and chasing action away.

The way I see it I can:

1) Bet - It builds the pot which is great especially if I hit my flush draw. Also a 3rd heart may scare away action on the river. However if I bet can/does he often call with worse often enough?

2) Check behind - Yes it allows him to draw for free which is not good. On the other hand the times he isn't holding a draw will I get value on the river from 5's and small-medium PP's that wouldn't call a turn bet?

Might seem a simple spot to most people but I'm trying to learn to balance my aggression to get value.

Thanks for any help.

Oliver


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Tue Aug 21, 2012, 09:20 PM
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GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post

The flop comes down A high and I flop middle pair, the villain checks and again this seems like another standard spot to bet for value. He has loads of worse hands that he can call with such as small-medium PP's, SC's and gappers that contain a 5, straight draws. I thus make a standard 2/3 pot value bet.

He calls and the turn comes the 6h, now I have middle pair and a flush draw and I feel he still has lots of hands in his range that can call a bet, is this correct or am I being too optimisitc? So it seems a pretty good spot to bet and tbh this is a spot that I am betting nearly all the time for value. However by betting am I being too aggressive and chasing action away.

The way I see it I can:

1) Bet - It builds the pot which is great especially if I hit my flush draw. Also a 3rd heart may scare away action on the river. However if I bet can/does he often call with worse often enough?

2) Check behind - Yes it allows him to draw for free which is not good. On the other hand the times he isn't holding a draw will I get value on the river from 5's and small-medium PP's that wouldn't call a turn bet?
Some great questions here Oliver

That is a good list of hands that can call that are worse. You didn't mention worse TX type hands. You also didn't mention those pesky AX hands that have us in bad shape .

I think when we bet flop, get a call, and get this specific turn card, we should check back. We give ourselves a chance to outdraw those AX hands that we are behind and we get to keep in a bunch of hands we are ahead of that check-called the flop, which might otherwise fold the turn.

My standard play on the flop would actually be to check-back. If villain checks a turn card like this then we basically know we have the best hand 100% of the time. If villain bets any card, we can usually call to see a river and try to showdown our hand. That being said betting the flop isn't too bad either -- like you said he is a limper and can have a lot of hands like QJ, 65, that will check call the flop out of position.

So to briefly answer #1 -- it builds a pot versus AX -- which is only good if the river bails us out! A third heart will almost certainly not scare away people, since people are not too keen on giving people credit for backdoor flushes (while being very afraid of the frontdoor kind ). Do enough hands call the turn? Maybe, probably. But I still think checking back is more profitable.

#2 -- what hands are you worried about drawing out? There aren't that many and the ones that can don't have many outs. Don't always worry about giving a free card to your opponent if that free card usually helps you more than it does them

Gareth
 
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Wed Aug 22, 2012, 12:45 PM
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Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi Gareth,

Thanks for the evaluation. Just a few more questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
I think when we bet flop, get a call, and get this specific turn card, we should check back. We give ourselves a chance to outdraw those AX hands that we are behind and we get to keep in a bunch of hands we are ahead of that check-called the flop, which might otherwise fold the turn.
I understand your reasoning for checking back this turn and I do agree, however would you take the same line if an offsuit blank fell such as the 2c?

If the turn was a non heart we haven't picked up any extra equity against hands that beat us so is checking back still the best option? Firstly it is the cheapest way to get to showdown against hands that are ahead of us. Also checking back allows worse hands, that may fold to a turn bet, to make a 'curiosity' call on the river.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
#2 -- what hands are you worried about drawing out? There aren't that many and the ones that can don't have many outs. Don't always worry about giving a free card to your opponent if that free card usually helps you more than it does them
Hopefully I'm understanding this right, probably gunna be a big muddle of words but I'll see if I can get my understanding across.

As he has fewer hands in his range that I'm behind, thus more that I'm ahead of and I have a bigger draw (more outs) than the few draws he has in his range; it makes it profitable to check back as a broadway card will only improve his holding a very small amount of the time. Whereas I'm 1) More likely to hit my draw 2)Less likely to need to hit it. Also when nothing hits the river by checking the turn I am more likely to get called by worse hands.


Hope this makes sense although I've read through it and I'm finding it hard to follow myself. If it does make sense, is this understanding correct?

Thanks for all the help.

Oliver


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Wed Aug 22, 2012, 05:03 PM
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GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Would I check back a 2c? -- Yes I would. This is one of the cons of betting the flop, we have to check-back so frequently because we are worried about narrowing his continuing range to better if we go bet/bet.

Other question is quite muddled. Let's review -- the river card is more likely to help us than it is to help him. Why? Because we have a flush draw -- we dominate most of his other draws. Ie he has worse flush draws, he has gutshots like KJ that we block with our Q, or have false outs on a heart, same with his other straight draws, they have false outs on a heart. We can outdraw the hands that are ahead of ours, namely AX, while the hands we are ahead of don't outdraw us often at all, not as often as we outdraw AX. Is this a restatement of what you said? I am not sure . But that's what I briefly mean.

The main problem with betting the turn is having him call with worse more often than he calls with better. The fact that we turned a flush draw, in my mind, cements our decision as a 'check back.'

Best advice... hit the heart on the river
 
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Wed Aug 22, 2012, 05:36 PM
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Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
Would I check back a 2c? -- Yes I would. This is one of the cons of betting the flop, we have to check-back so frequently because we are worried about narrowing his continuing range to better if we go bet/bet.
Getting very hypothetical with this one BUT, if we check the flop presumably we have to call a standard sized bet on the turn (heart or no heart) as we kind of induced it by not c-betting. However if he continues to fire a blank river can we call? How often is he doing this with hands we beat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
Other question is quite muddled. Let's review -- the river card is more likely to help us than it is to help him. Why? Because we have a flush draw -- we dominate most of his other draws. Ie he has worse flush draws, he has gutshots like KJ that we block with our Q, or have false outs on a heart, same with his other straight draws, they have false outs on a heart. We can outdraw the hands that are ahead of ours, namely AX, while the hands we are ahead of don't outdraw us often at all, not as often as we outdraw AX. Is this a restatement of what you said? I am not sure . But that's what I briefly mean.
This is exactly what I was trying to say but you have a much better way of explaining it.

Thanks again Gareth, sorryabout all the questions.

Oliver


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Thu Aug 23, 2012, 09:49 AM
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GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hey Oliver

This theoretic question is actually pretty relevant. Especially if we bet flop and he calls his weak aces, to check it down with us happily, versus betting them twice turn/river when the flop goes check check. Many passive limpers will check-call A7 on this flop to check it down and hope to win at showdown, while when given the chance to retake the betting lead on the turn might go bet-bet turn-river. So in one case we get to lose 1 street versus AX and another we lose two.

It is not that simple of course as opponents who go bet-bet turn-river can also be bluffing all their missed gutters like QJ/KJ/KQ and of course can also be occasionally betting made hands that are worse, just for the sake of betting.

I know your player pool is deep but this is where things like AF in your HUD and notes come into play. If you see that a player is unlikely to be betting A2 twice then he is more likely to have air or a strong hand on the river and we can usually call twice with QT. If he is betting all better hands on the river then we have a bit more of a problem and might have to fold.

Gareth
 
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Thu Aug 23, 2012, 11:36 AM
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Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi Gareth

It seems that the more answers I get the more questions arise Thankyou for you're continued feedback and help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
Hey Oliver

This theoretic question is actually pretty relevant. Especially if we bet flop and he calls his weak aces, to check it down with us happily, versus betting them twice turn/river when the flop goes check check. Many passive limpers will check-call A7 on this flop to check it down and hope to win at showdown, while when given the chance to retake the betting lead on the turn might go bet-bet turn-river. So in one case we get to lose 1 street versus AX and another we lose two.

It is not that simple of course as opponents who go bet-bet turn-river can also be bluffing all their missed gutters like QJ/KJ/KQ and of course can also be occasionally betting made hands that are worse, just for the sake of betting.
Although you previously said that you're standard play is to check the flop back, because if he checks the turn we are nearly 100% sure we have the best hand. Also if he bets we can call and try to get to showdown. I agree with your reasoning for this but I am pretty undecided as to what the best flop line is.

Sure if we check the flop we can often be sure we have the best hand if the villain checks the turn. But the times he bets the turn and follows through by barreling the river can surely leave us in a sticky situation. You say he could be bluffing missed draws but in general I find players at this level tend to bluff less on the river; he could also be betting worse hands so I suppose we have to weigh up how likely it he does each and then assess whether to call.

I'm not sure how likely it is that a player will fire the turn and river so I suppose when deciding if to check the flop we have to determine how likely it is they'll do this. All in all I actually think betting the flop is better as it allows us to check back nearly all turns getting our hand to showdown cheaper. However if he is likely to fire turn and river if we check the flop then he would he likely fire the river if we bet flop check turn. Ahhh too many possibilities, perhaps I'm overthinking this and levelling myself!

Finding it hard to get my point across, but you seem to be good at understanding what I mean. Basically do you still think checking the flop is the best line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
I know your player pool is deep but this is where things like AF in your HUD and notes come into play. If you see that a player is unlikely to be betting A2 twice then he is more likely to have air or a strong hand on the river and we can usually call twice with QT. If he is betting all better hands on the river then we have a bit more of a problem and might have to fold.

Also I understand that you play a lot of zoom so I was wondering if you have any tips for making notes on players, i.e. how do you review your zoom sessions with the aim of making player notes?

Thanks for all the help.

Oliver


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