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New York Judge Rules Poker IS a Game of Skill

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New York Judge Rules Poker IS a Game of Skill - Wed Aug 22, 2012, 02:24 AM
(#1)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Maybe Dave or John can provide a link,I read the story at the NBC news site myself.

On Tuesday in a case involving a back room poker club run out of one of his warehouses a Staten Island (NY,NY) businessman had been charged with violating the Illegal Gambling Business Act,a 1970's federal statute that was intended to crack down on bookmaking,slot machines and numbers running.

His lawyers claimed he was innocent of the charges under this statute as those are games of chance and poker,being a game of mainly skill with some chance mixed in,is not covered by that law.

Federal District Court Judge Jake Weinstein agreed.

"In poker" he wrote,"increased proficiency boosts a player's chance of winning and affects the outcome of individual hands as well as a series of hands. Expert poker players draw on an array of talents ,including facility with numbers,knowledge of human psychology,and powers of observation and deception."

He wrote a 120 page opinion on his ruling,complete with charts and statistics that he felt made an unassailable argument that players more skilled in such areas will consistently beat less skilled or experienced players.

The PPA aided in the defendant's case and a representative of the PPA said that this was exactly the kind of test case they had been waiting for. As for Judge Weinstein he went on in his opinion to touch upon the rich history that poker has in our nation's story (kind of ironic that we, the country that invented the game,are barred from our government from playing it...).

Several legal scholars have already weighed in on this ruling,saying that it further undercuts the governments legal footing in restricting online poker.

Come on already US government,muck your losing hand.

Drip,drip,drip...

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 02:26 AM..
 
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Wed Aug 22, 2012, 04:31 AM
(#2)
0HighTimes0's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post

Federal District Court Judge Jake Weinstein agreed.

"In poker" he wrote,"increased proficiency boosts a player's chance of winning and affects the outcome of individual hands as well as a series of hands. Expert poker players draw on an array of talents ,including facility with numbers,knowledge of human psychology,and powers of observation and deception."

He wrote a 120 page opinion on his ruling,complete with charts and statistics that he felt made an unassailable argument that players more skilled in such areas will consistently beat less skilled or experienced players.

The PPA aided in the defendant's case and a representative of the PPA said that this was exactly the kind of test case they had been waiting for. As for Judge Weinstein he went on in his opinion to touch upon the rich history that poker has in our nation's story (kind of ironic that we, the country that invented the game,are barred from our government from playing it...).

Several legal scholars have already weighed in on this ruling,saying that it further undercuts the governments legal footing in restricting online poker.

Come on already US government,muck your losing hand.

Drip,drip,drip...
When I was researching of when 5 card draw was first played in New Zealand, http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...of-Poker-in-NZ
I came across this NZ newspaper article (news from New York USA), which made me laugh, as "looks like the argument about POKER being game of Skill v Luck been going on for over 100+ years lol "

IS IT A GAME OF SKILL ?
Hawera & Normanby Star, Volume V, Issue 707, 24 January 1884, Page 3
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi...0poker+cards--
IS IT A GAME OF SKILL
"A story is told by a popular American humorist of a case in which the point came up for decision whether poker was a game of skill or of chance.. The jury were equally divided, and they went to their room to argue the matter, taking with them several packs of cards. After the lapse of some time one of the jurors, who had maintained that the game was one of chance, sent to the Court to borrow some money from a friend. Other adherents of the doctrine of chance presently followed the example, and in the end the chance men returned with melancholy faces and empty pockets, amply convinced that the game was essentially one of skill. A St. Louis judge, however, who is, perhaps, not acquainted with the humorists of his native land, or at anyrate declines to accept their arguments, has recently ruled against the opinion of the famous jury. Gambling, under certain circumstances, is illegal in the States, and the judge has dealt a blow at 'straight flushes,' 'cold decks,' fulls,' and the rest. In the course of his judgment he remarked The evidence further discloses the fact that while the game of poker requires a great deal of skill on the part of the players, yet the element of chance largely enters into it, and, in my opinion, brings it within the statute." A writer in the New York Times, who seems to have had unfortunate experience of poker, dissents from this ruling. He speaks as if he had tried the game without skill, in the hope that the element of chance would aid him, and the result is that he agrees with the jury against the Judge. Standard. "

"opinion to touch upon the rich history that poker has in our nation's story (kind of ironic that we, the country that invented the game,are barred from our government from playing it...)".
"Come on already US government,muck your losing hand.
" Moxie Pip
I agree with this Any sport/game has element of chance/luck in it, but its the decisions that a player makes at any given time, effects outcome - wining or losing, regarding Chance/Luck V Skill/experience.
All Thee Best
 
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Wed Aug 22, 2012, 01:33 PM
(#3)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
WHAT!!!!!!!!!!! (What I yelled the instant I heard CNN mention a New York judge ruled poker is not gambling)

If you wrote down the story of online poker over the last 7 years I don't think anyone would believe it. Man, I can't even believe it. The chain of events over the the last year and a half is just plain madness.

This is great news for all of us in the USA. I'm very happy about this. That said though, I don't really agree with the statement that 'poker is not gambling'. I mean, it is a game of BOTH skill and luck. It isn't one or the other. Sure if you play 1 million+ hands luck largely becomes a nonfactor, leaving just skill. But, for many, many poker players who play a few hundred or few thousand hands a month, there is a great deal of gambling involved in the outcome. The decision by the judge is great, I just feel like his wording is off.

link to NY Daily News article:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1141574
 
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Wed Aug 22, 2012, 08:38 PM
(#4)
FLsnookman's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 565
Hey jig, walking out your front door and crossing the street blindfolded is gambling. Looking both ways before crossing the same street without the blindfold is still a gamble, but it IS much less of one.
 
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Wed Aug 22, 2012, 10:03 PM
(#5)
0HighTimes0's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
I think it is gambling and is money you earn from gambling despite if you win more than you lose because of skill base. For new players who don't know that skill it is simply gambling and money that is either unaffordable or surplus, therefore it is not income. Even when you know and win with skill it remains gambling because you are using money from gambling to beat gambling you are gambling, and gambling is your source of revenue, put in to the same game, making it gambling imo.
The whole worlds stock market is gambling(IMO) if u take DOJ etc ruling on online poker, Has the USA DOJ etc banned/stopped the Stock market, lottery's etc,
(Banks/stock brokers etc losing peoples money, bankrupting country's, and they get bail outs, form stealing from people, here in NZ millions been gambled/stolen on stock markets and most persons have got away with it)
least in poker u have decisions to play or not and usually its your money gambled, IMO Poker industry and stock markets have some similarity's
All Thee Best

Last edited by 0HighTimes0; Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 01:10 AM.. Reason: Text was wrong as gave diff meaning to what i was meant to say
 
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Wed Aug 22, 2012, 10:50 PM
(#6)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
so gmbling = heads up v's phill Ivey means you are 50/50 so who is saying they are even's to win v's phill?

Grade b


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Thu Aug 23, 2012, 05:08 PM
(#7)
Don B. Cilly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 394
"There are few things that are so unpardonably neglected in our country as poker. The upper class knows very little about it. Now and then you find ambassadors who have sort of a general knowledge of the game, but the ignorance of the people is fearful. Why, I have known clergymen, good men, kind-hearted, liberal, sincere, and all that, who did not know the meaning of a 'flush'. It is enough to make one ashamed of one's species." - Mark Twain

The same Mr. Clemens on Luck vs. skill:
http://theppa.org/pdf/EPSTEIN1.pdf
 
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Thu Aug 23, 2012, 05:18 PM
(#8)
Don B. Cilly's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 394
The phrase:

"It is the deliberate opinion of this jury, that the ‘chance’ theory . . . is a pernicious doctrine, and calculated to inflict untold suffering and pecuniary loss upon any community that takes stock in it"

is actually worth considering, IMHO.
 
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Thu Aug 23, 2012, 10:36 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Maybe Dave or John can provide a link,I read the story at the NBC news site myself.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...rnet-ante?lite

^^The poll is going well

Here's highlights of the ruling from Rich Muny:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...94&postcount=9


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Fri Aug 24, 2012, 09:35 AM
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Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Encouraging, very encouraging. I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and it might not be a train, but sunlight.

Unfortunately, the law PokerStar Execs are charged with is money laundrying, not gambling. I know the two are wedded in this case, but I'll not trust judges. They have ways of interpriting the law that sometimes common sense.

But it is good news.
 
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Fri Aug 24, 2012, 09:54 AM
(#11)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Tanks for the link Dave. cast my vote, but it didnt change the percentage any damn!!
Shame sometimes we live in a republic and not a democracy huh? Now if our reps would just pull there heads out of their collective a**es, ( thats for you jdub hehe) maybe we can get back to business.


May the tinfoil protect you. MT
 
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Fri Aug 24, 2012, 02:37 PM
(#12)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairn Destop View Post
Unfortunately, the law PokerStar Execs are charged with is money laundrying, not gambling. I know the two are wedded in this case, but I'll not trust judges. They have ways of interpriting the law that sometimes common sense.

Newsflash: The case was settled Moxie tried to tell you this in the other thread, you must not have gone back and read it.


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Fri Aug 24, 2012, 03:05 PM
(#13)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
And not just settled Cairn,but settled to the tune of roughly 3/4's of a BILLION dollars that Stars has agreed to pay in fines and making the players robbed by Full Tilt whole.

Billion. With a B...

The kind of money that makes the politicians lift their collective heads from the trough and take notice.

Stars held out for 2 main things in the settlement...

1. NO admission of wrongdoing on their part.

2. Both Stars and Full Tilt (which Stars owns now of course...) are free to apply for licensing both federally and in any state that wants to grant them a license.


When presented with "reads" like that I feel I have a pretty good idea how this is going to play out. Whether we have to be subjected to the government playing their trash hand all the way to showdown is the real question at this point IMO.
 
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Fri Aug 24, 2012, 10:40 PM
(#14)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
BronzeStar
Then correct me if I'm wrong.






The civil case has been resolved. That is where we have the fines, the admission of no wrong doing, and the relief for those American players on Full Tilt.

However, the criminal case is still pending. There, the site's management has been charged with a crime. Money laundrying and circumventing the appropriate statute regarding gambling and banking. That case is yet to be settled.

Last I heard on the criminal case came from a news release made by PokerStars. According to that story, the parties were actively seeking a settlement. Since discussions about settlements regarding an ongoing case remains confidential, no further information could be given. Though the tone of the news flash was guarded, but optomistic.

Releases on the criminal case would support the opinion that the DOJ is holding a losing hand, but refuse to muck. No trial date has been set. The feeling is that the statue the DOJ is using is not applicable. Now, with the ruling about poker being a game of skill versus a casino game of chance, there is a feeling that the DOJ hasn't a prayer of winning its case.

That is opinion of the public. Until either the judge makes a ruling, or legislation is passed making the criminal charges moot, the criminal case is still active.

Again, I will express my thought that the outlook is good for online poker. Just don't think it will be soon. Here's hoping I'm wrong.
 
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Sun Aug 26, 2012, 05:53 PM
(#15)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairn Destop View Post
Then correct me if I'm wrong.






The civil case has been resolved. That is where we have the fines, the admission of no wrong doing, and the relief for those American players on Full Tilt.

However, the criminal case is still pending. There, the site's management has been charged with a crime. Money laundrying and circumventing the appropriate statute regarding gambling and banking. That case is yet to be settled.

Last I heard on the criminal case came from a news release made by PokerStars. According to that story, the parties were actively seeking a settlement. Since discussions about settlements regarding an ongoing case remains confidential, no further information could be given. Though the tone of the news flash was guarded, but optomistic.

Releases on the criminal case would support the opinion that the DOJ is holding a losing hand, but refuse to muck. No trial date has been set. The feeling is that the statue the DOJ is using is not applicable. Now, with the ruling about poker being a game of skill versus a casino game of chance, there is a feeling that the DOJ hasn't a prayer of winning its case.

That is opinion of the public. Until either the judge makes a ruling, or legislation is passed making the criminal charges moot, the criminal case is still active.

Again, I will express my thought that the outlook is good for online poker. Just don't think it will be soon. Here's hoping I'm wrong.

You're wrong Cairn. Consider yourself corrected.

The case is SETTLED.

Period.

Over.

Finis.

Done.

Fines to be paid. Full Tilt customers to be paid. NO admission of wrong doing by Stars. Stars and Tilt can apply for ANY AND ALL licenses,federal or state. A few peeps have to cut ties with the respective sites (mainly on the Full Tilt side...).

I tried to tell you for over a year that this case would NEVER see the inside of a courtroom. Now that it's over you still want to poo poo it.

What's the deal man,you want back on here or not?
 
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Mon Aug 27, 2012, 09:59 AM
(#16)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
I tried to tell you for over a year that this case would NEVER see the inside of a courtroom. Now that it's over you still want to poo poo it.

What's the deal man,you want back on here or not?


As I said, I understood there were two cases, separate and distint. Think like the OJ trial. He was found innocent in one and guilty in the other.

Same here. One was a civil case seeking fines and penalties. The other a criminal case. My understanding was that the civil matter has been resolved via a settlement where everyone wins. PokerStars gets the assets of Full Tilt, the customers from Full Tilt recover their money, and there is no admission of guilt by PokerStars. That's great news for all.

I thought that would mean the criminal case was still pending. Obviously I'm wrong on that and the money laundry case and the circumvented banking regulations have also been resolved. Again, that's great news.

Regarding that last line, you really have to ask? I wouldn't be into statistical overload if I didn't anticipate a return to the virtual felt. In fact, I'm looking forward to the day I can try the open league. With no bankroll, I'll be hunting down those pennies.
 
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Mon Aug 27, 2012, 02:22 PM
(#17)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairn Destop View Post
As I said, I understood there were two cases, separate and distint. Think like the OJ trial. He was found innocent in one and guilty in the other.

Same here. One was a civil case seeking fines and penalties. The other a criminal case. My understanding was that the civil matter has been resolved via a settlement where everyone wins. PokerStars gets the assets of Full Tilt, the customers from Full Tilt recover their money, and there is no admission of guilt by PokerStars. That's great news for all.

I thought that would mean the criminal case was still pending. Obviously I'm wrong on that and the money laundry case and the circumvented banking regulations have also been resolved. Again, that's great news.

Regarding that last line, you really have to ask? I wouldn't be into statistical overload if I didn't anticipate a return to the virtual felt. In fact, I'm looking forward to the day I can try the open league. With no bankroll, I'll be hunting down those pennies.

LOL,what?

Cairn it's not even remotely the same and your recollection of the series of events regarding OJ is a bit "off".

He was charged criminally and found not guilty after said criminal trial.

Several months later Fred Goldman and his attorneys THEN announced their intention to file a civil complaint against OJ,to wit that he was legally LIABLE in the wrongful death of Ron Goldman. The jury agreed and made a monetary judgement against Mr. Simpson.

A criminal case,of course,charges the jury of either being capable of finding the defendant(s) guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" or returning a verdict of not guilty. In a civil case the burden of proof is much more lenient---a "preponderance of the evidence" being a common term.

In the case against Stars it was a criminal proceeding,period. The settlement that was reached ENDS the case (so long as Stars abides by the settlement of course...).

Now there could be,at any point,the possibility of banks or other entities coming forward and filing a civil complaint against the companies involved in the case for damages. That would have been extremely likely to happen to Full Tilt I believe,had Stars not stepped forward to ensure that Tilt's customers will be made whole. Now I doubt we'll see any civil proceedings.
 
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Mon Aug 27, 2012, 05:52 PM
(#18)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I know quoting Wikipedia is a bit dodgy at times but what I quote below seems to agree with cairn destop:

On July 31, 2012, US government dismissed "with prejudice" all civil complaints against all PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker companies after coming to a settlement with PokerStars which includes PokerStars purchasing Full Tilt.[9] PokerStars and Full Tilt admitted no wrongdoing as part of the settlement, which ends all litigation between the government and the poker companies. The criminal indictments remain in place for the named individuals.
 
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Tue Aug 28, 2012, 02:52 PM
(#19)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
I know quoting Wikipedia is a bit dodgy at times but what I quote below seems to agree with cairn destop:

On July 31, 2012, US government dismissed "with prejudice" all civil complaints against all PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker companies after coming to a settlement with PokerStars which includes PokerStars purchasing Full Tilt.[9] PokerStars and Full Tilt admitted no wrongdoing as part of the settlement, which ends all litigation between the government and the poker companies. The criminal indictments remain in place for the named individuals.

Yes,criminal charges against certain INDIVIDUALS are still unresolved. The litigation between the SITES and the government in these cases is over though.

Personally I hope they throw the book at Raymond Bitar and a couple of well known professional players.
 
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Tue Aug 28, 2012, 03:38 PM
(#20)
Stakehorse75's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 865
BronzeStar
saw the article at another site. Didn't want to put up the link, it has a poker theme. I can't wait until November 6.


 

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