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crash - Sat Nov 16, 2002, 10:41 PM
(#1)
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crash
 
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Sun Nov 17, 2002, 12:22 AM
(#2)
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Another great post Apryll......

Played with you tonite for the first time for more than a hand or two. Must still be gettin the shit cards. LOL

Anywho.....love your trip reports.....really helps me get a feel for live tourney action and makes me want to be there.

Maybe i will get too in tunica. But thats still up in the air for me.

Ru
 
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Sun Nov 17, 2002, 12:35 PM
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excellent reports apryll, thanks for sharing. it allows us all to see that not everyone can win. after reading trip reports and magazine articles, it makes it seem like all everyone doing is going out there and winning, but far more poeple lose than win. i know you are an excellent player, and you will win your fair share, this just wasnt the time for you. good luck to you in the future, just not against me. thanks again,

jmuzzey
 
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Sun Nov 17, 2002, 11:21 PM
(#4)
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Apryll,

You play an excellent game- don't lose your discipline!!

If anyone had told me I'd win that event, I'd probably have laughed. I believed in myself, but we all know how NL can go.

Alan
 
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Mon Nov 18, 2002, 03:43 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Great job on the NLHE tourney and on trip reports.


I would have done the same thing with the KK.

One thing geezer taught me is you cannot fear monsters under the bed. If you always think AA is out there you cannot play NLHE.

Do you fold KK sometimes? I would have to have the most rock solid tell in the world to do it. And from your story you did not have it on that hand.

Great job.


Randy

PS apryll said:

Quote:
Tournaments are a losing proposition, and the real money is in the cash games.
I am sure that it is true. That the EV is much higher for cash games. But people play for different reasons. I get very little satisfaction from cash games. So I play them seldom. I get a huge charge out of tournament strategy and so that is what I play.
 
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Wed Nov 20, 2002, 01:21 AM
(#6)
Deleted user
ok apryll you asked about the KK hand in the genral forum and having read this post on sunday i have been thinking about it since and feel i should post my thoughts on this.


at this point in the tourny only 1 person on the table could seriously damage you and there were only 2 hands you could possible go against him with all in and they were AA and KK but this hand was not a time when the KK was the correct play.

when the big stack called the 4k (a raise from a big stack and a reraise) he let you know he had either AA or KK (as you had KK you could basically rule it out) otherwise he would have folded his hand to let you (the other big stack) take out the short stack (unless he thought you might fold in which case he might have called with less)

to me i a big stack calls after a reraise of another big stacks raise he is saying i got a big hand you can call if you like and give him a bigger pot by reraising he knows you have to fold (anything but AA) and if you want to reraise watch me get the chips in.


if the reraise was smaller it could have meant "i got a nice hand too" lets try and one of us take him out. But in this case the raise was too big for it and as you worked out in your head then dissmissed because of the amount of time he had them in such a short space of time he had the only hand he could have to have made that play.


although most players (you, noodles,rggator) that have said they would go all in with the KK are better players than me i think you all need to re-look at the hand and the chip count and the postion in the tourny and then tell me honestly what other possible hand the big stack could have had.


ps i enjoyed all the recent trip reposts and the thinking behind some of the hands played.
 
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KK vs AA vs 99 - Thu Nov 21, 2002, 03:15 AM
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Wow what an incredible beat. You had about 15k, you raise, the 99 reraised to 4k and the only stack that can bust you just calls. The fact that he just calls tells me I have the best hand preflop.
I actually would be thinking that the only hand that could beat me was the reraise to 4K. And with an overcall, I could do no worse than breakeven. And if my all in raise were called I would be ahead of the game.
I would have reraised all in as you did. I think Sklansky would have played it the same way.

This is what we are taught. Get the money in the pot when you have the best of it. End of story.

I had a similiar beat at the Queens classic a few years ago. If I replayed that hand over a few times, it was at least a few hundred. The point is don't let it get to you. With the information you had, you played the hand right.

On the other hand, if he reraised all in then you would have reason to think about it and do as we are taught and perhaps not call all in. But you had no reason to believe you were behind the big stack.

So forget about it and move on. We all know we haven't heard the end of your tournament adventures.

DD
 
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Thu Nov 21, 2002, 09:51 AM
(#8)
Deleted user
Ok, I get to beat myself up over this call again, but I do appreciate the responses.

At the time, we are at 40-50 players, so average stack is around 6K. At this table, seat 8 had 20K, I had 15K, one other player had 10-11K, the rest had 5K or less.

Seat 8 and I were taking turns ramrodding this table. One of us raised nearly every hand, and the smaller stacks did not want to play against us. Just prior to this sequence we had a short break, so I had a pretty accurate chip count on everyone. It was also at this break I noticed TJ Cloutier had about 2K, and he ended up making the final table, which is a nice job with a short stack.

I had decided at the break that the 5 or so really short stacks were hanging on for dear life and looking to get into the money, and I was going to really open up and get aggressive, including coming over the top of seat 8, as he had shown a willingness to lay it down to a big raise.

About 4 or 5 hands following the break, I get the sequence of 3 hands that I report about. AQ, which I fold to an allin reraise, JJ which takes the pot, and KK. I raised 3 hands in a row, and laid one down to a reraise.

When the 99 pushes allin with his 4k stack over the top of my standard raise, it could be anything and I love my KK. He has to take a stand against me or seat 8 sooner or later.

When seat 8 comes over the top of him for his whole stack, all of the things ironside says went thru my mind. However, I kept coming back to the fact that I had opened up and raised 3 str8 hands, I had shown a willingness to lay it down to a big reraise, and seat 8 had aces 5 times in the last 2 hours or so.

What could seat 8 have? Any big pair, or AK. I can safely put him on JJ, QQ, KK, AA, or AK. So 1 out of the 5 hands has me crushed, 2 of the five I have him crushed, and 1 I have a nice advantage, especially if the other active player has an ace. It was also possible he had a smaller pair and was trying to isolate the allin player.

If I fold here, seat 8 would come over the top of me a lot more often. Of course, if I call and lose, I'm gone.

I have not worked the math out, but I did not have a lot of chips in the pot at the time. I could have easily folded my KK and waited for another chance, still had the 2nd largest stack at the table, and continued to chop away at the blinds and antes. In hindsight, maybe that was the right move. As it turned out, seat 8 would have taken a 4K haircut when 99 flopped a set, and we would have had pretty similar stacks.

So as far as tournament situations go, from a strict survive and advance standpoint, this was a clear fold, for all the reasons ironside states and for the reasons stated above. However, my strength is table dynamics, and absent a clear read on seat 8, I have to play to my strength. Table dynamics led me to believe seat 8 was making a statement with this raise. I thought he was saying, "back off Apryll, I'm still the big gun at this table." He looked at me like he truly expected me to fold.

Given all the information I had available to me, I had to go with the KK. It was just too probable that he did not have AA, which is the only hand I hate. I was kind of hoping that maybe the 4K stack had AK, seat 8 had AK, and I had them drawing to 2 collective outs. As I explain above, I felt at the time that he makes that move with several hands. If I thought he only goes allin with AA, of course I fold the kings.

A famous internet forum poster once said, "you don't make money in limit holdem making tough folds on the river." I agree. I also think you will not make money in NLHE if you make tough folds of KK preflop to a reraise. There are too many good players out there who will reraise you with lesser hands, especially when they have you stacked and can eliminate you, and even moreso when there is another allin player in the hand and their hand figures to play better headsup. Sometimes you just have to go for it.

At the final table of the Championship NLHE event (where our very own hukilau made the final table), one of the best players in the world (Phil Ivey) made an opening raise with AQ. Howard Lederer came over the top with a big reraise with KK. Phil then came back over the top allin. Did Howard muck his KK? No, he called allin, busted Phil, and eventually won the tournament. I envisioned a similar result, but it wasn't meant to be this time.
 
Old
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Thu Nov 21, 2002, 10:46 AM
(#9)
Deleted user
I believe not only that you did right by going all in with KK (God hates a coward!) but for what it's worth, I would certainly would have done that there/then.

HOWEVER, I was very concerned that you included the superstitious comment
Quote:
and seat 8 had aces 5 times in the last 2 hours or so.
That has absolutely nothing to do with anything and as long as you have that in your game, you've got a leak. In fact it is the same fallacious approach that makes you "uneasy" in an online situation (remember the guy who "couldn't possibly have 64" and therefore must have known what was coming?).

The KK not fearing the underbed monster (the AA he actually had!) is going to do better than the "I'll wait for a better opportunity" some have recommended.

All of your reasons (except the superstition noted) were sound poker motives and as you correctly pointed out there's a lot more wisdom in playing cash games than in the lotteries-disguised-as-poker we call tournaments.
 
Old
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Thu Nov 21, 2002, 03:40 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
ok again i am going against the grain

as i stated in a post in the genral forum i will rarely fold KK preflop but in this case i would have to(ok i wasnt live to get any tells from player)
apryl states that seat 8 and herself were taking it in turn to bully the table neither player showing any intention of wanting to get involved with each other.
the KK is only about 2-1 favorite v AK and although you were getting great odds and a win would put you in a great postion taking on a big stack at this point was suicidal they was still plenty of short stacks to play against and playing against the only stack that could knock you out even as a 4-1 favourite at this stage of the tourny was not the best play.

there are only a few time that folding KK is a good play and this is one of them. My thought on this would only change if i had thought that seat 8 was capable of making a move on me with KQ but reading between the lines i dont think they would have.
 
Old
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Fri Nov 22, 2002, 09:36 PM
(#11)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geezer
HOWEVER, I was very concerned that you included the superstitious comment
Quote:
and seat 8 had aces 5 times in the last 2 hours or so.
That has absolutely nothing to do with anything and as long as you have that in your game, you've got a leak.
I don't think this consideration is based on superstition, and I don't think Apryll was looking at it from a superstitious viewpoint.
 
Old
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Fri Nov 22, 2002, 09:37 PM
(#12)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironside
there are only a few time that folding KK is a good play and this is one of them. My thought on this would only change if i had thought that seat 8 was capable of making a move on me with KQ but reading between the lines i dont think they would have.
If they know you are capable of folding KK they would have. If you fold, I hope you would do it quietly.

One thing is for sure, the other big stack did not give Apryll a hand as strong as KK, and based on the read Apryll had, it would probably be a mistake to fold.

If you were the other big stack, Iron, then Apryll would have had you on a narrower range of hands and probably have folded, being right to do so from what you have said.

Though, Iron, I do wonder what you would have done if you held QQ or JJ in that other big stacks position, knowing that Apryll could have put the first raise in with any 2 cards. Is AA or KK really the only 2 hands you would play against Apryll in that spot, as you say?

Another important consideration is that Apryll thought that she would own the table, with the stack she would have had by winning that hand. Probbaly guaranteed a top 3 spot. Giving up an edge of even 2-to-1 in that case would be a big mistake. It usually is anyway in a tournament, but if winning it guarantees a top 3, then it is even a bigger mistake than normal. There isn't a player in history that could justify it.
 
Old
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Sat Nov 23, 2002, 01:56 PM
(#13)
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Quote:
Though, Iron, I do wonder what you would have done if you held QQ or JJ in that other big stacks position, knowing that Apryll could have put the first raise in with any 2 cards. Is AA or KK really the only 2 hands you would play against Apryll in that spot, as you say?
first if i was in seat 8 and apryl had shown that she was going to play her stack in hands that the other big stacks were not involved in as was case in this post i would have folded QQ JJ AKs and let apryl attpemt to take player out.

if UTG (apryl) had a medium size stack instead of the only stack on table that could hurt me the game changes and i could play as little as AJ or 88 (depending on read of both players)
i have (by some people) an image of being too tight by i think i am am selectivly aggressive folding big hands when the time is right and playing rags when the time is right.

in folding the KK i would have mucked them but i also would have told the player as i mucked (last person to act) that his AA was good to let him know i had a read on him. I did this in a school event when i told a player that his 89 was good then called for a single bet on the river knowing i was beat just to let him know i had a read it help it later rounds when you raise with nothing.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 04, 2002, 12:51 PM
(#14)
Deleted user
Johnny Chan said, "I never folded KK preflop" so I always remind myself of that. If Johnny Chan doesn't fold KK, why should I? If I run into AA, it was just destined to be that way. I once had 5 people go all-in in a cash game online and I looked at my KK and remembered Johnny's advice. I said, there's got to be an AA out there. Johnny's voice told me...never fold KK before the flop.

I led the hand the whole way and picked up a huge pot.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 04, 2002, 01:36 PM
(#15)
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Part of the reason is pyschological. I doubt players push Chan around like they do Helmuth.
 
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Annecdotal Evidence - Wed Dec 04, 2002, 04:53 PM
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Diej

Annecdotal evidence to justify future actions is somewhat a combination of experience and superstition.

Diej said:
Quote:
I once had 5 people go all-in in a cash game online and I looked at my KK and remembered Johnny's advice. I said, there's got to be an AA out there. Johnny's voice told me...never fold KK before the flop. I led the hand the whole way and picked up a huge pot.
You may have won that time but, KK is an underdog to the field against that many oponents. You probably had pot odds to call there in the cash (assuming you meant "ring" game), though. In a tournament, as you neared the money (assuming your stack was sufficient) you should probably fold them in an instant in that situation.

Sticking with Johnny's rule, without the age old poker addendum "it depends", will have you playing them in the wrong situations, and hoping for luck. Things are much more situational then that.....
 
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Wed Dec 04, 2002, 05:46 PM
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Deleted user
But Bruno, you are guilty of folding too much yourself, particularly in all-in decisions. I am pretty sure that better players will push you around. Maybe you get away with it at PSO due to the low standard of play, but in real tournaments, good players that learn your play will certainly pressure you.
 
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Absolutely Correct - Wed Dec 04, 2002, 09:57 PM
(#18)
Deleted user
Noodles, I do appreciate your comments about my play. I respect your tremendous analytical abilities toward the game. And I would also appreciate your comments reagarding my comments below.


Noodles said:
Quote:
But Bruno, you are guilty of folding too much yourself, particularly in all-in decisions. I am pretty sure that better players will push you around. Maybe you get away with it at PSO due to the low standard of play, but in real tournaments, good players that learn your play will certainly pressure you.
Absolutely correct (from your perspective) regarding my folding more then you adhere to Noodles. And this is where we disagree regarding our various philosophies on when to go all-in, or call all-ins.

Instead of calling those players who pressure me "better" players, let's call them either "loose aggressive" and/or "table dynamically/player readably astute" (the "better" of the two...lol). They "read" tightness on my part, and push very hard at me when they think I will fold due to "tightness". At PSO, I do allow myself to be pushed off some all-in hands, when I am unsure. I do this because I believe that I can make plays to push myself to the final table if I don't make the mistake of getting taken out. Call it a bit of "Phil Helmuth......" (lol, for those of you who have read previous comments by me about Phil). My results at PSO say that I am correct in this assumption about myself. I "know" that you have put in all-in bets on me to force me off hands. And most of them I have folded. But what you don't "see" are the many times that I am pushing big bets at other people. I'll let go a situation where I am unsure, and play the pressure game where I am doing the pressing, where I can put the other person in a position where he/she is unsure.

I will play like this on-line, because I cannot see the other players to read them. I go by my notes on players, situational analysis, table dynamics, intuition, etc. Live, you can get a physical read. On-line, I cannot. To me, that "physical read" would have me playing a bit more definitive towards those all-in situations you allude to: calling some all-ins, or pushing them in myself.

Now, all of that self-analysis regarding your statement about my perceived "tight" play being said......I still stand by my comments above to diej regarding KK.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 04, 2002, 11:00 PM
(#19)
Deleted user
Quote:
My results at PSO say that I am correct in this assumption about myself.
At PSO I would certainly agree. I do not think that would be the case in real tournaments due to the level of play usually being higher overall.

Quote:
They "read" tightness on my part, and push very hard at me when they think I will fold due to "tightness".
I don't think they read tight. More like weak, or scared, or something, or being unable to understand certain situations correctly in terms of misreading it, so making incorrect folds.

Quote:
And most of them I have folded. But what you don't "see" are the many times that I am pushing big bets at other people. I'll let go a situation where I am unsure, and play the pressure game where I am doing the pressing, where I can put the other person in a position where he/she is unsure.
This is good, and you will benefit even more if you make them think twice before pressuring you, preferring to fold rather than move-in against you, in close situations. Wouldn't you like that added to your game? It probably isn't noticeable at PSO, but it would be eventually against higher quality fields.

Quote:
I "know" that you have put in all-in bets on me to force me off hands.
I can't remember doing so in the past. But you are correct in that I would be much more willing to move-in on you where I may fold against other players. Which is really my point about how it hurts you psychologically.

I don't really know how you play. My comments that you fold too much is just a guess based on a hand I played against you a while back. The hand, in addition to pointing out this weakness in your game, is also an illustration of another weakness in your thinking that you need to correct.

You open raised on the button and I moved in from the small blind. As I did so, I wished you luck or whatever, as there was no way I thought you would fold to my size bet. There was no intention on my part to push you off the hand, as the bet should have been too small to be able to do that. My all-in was way less then the pot. You thought for ages and then folded a pp saying you thought I had a bigger pair. This action and comment shows that you have a basic misunderstanding of how the depth of money effects the possible meanings of a bet. My all-in did not say that I thought my hand was superior to yours. It said that I was just going with my hand because it may be good. A call should have been automatic from you getting those odds in that situation, regardless of your hand. Not just because of the high odds, but because those odds mean that I could have a much wider range of hands than a proper all-in bet from me would represent.

If you can fold in that spot, then it seems obvious to me that you will fold a lot when re-raised, and are open to being bullied amongst higher quality fields. When a player has a close decision towards the end of a tournament, they will move-in against you rather than fold, which is what you do not want. You want them to be afraid of re-raising you. Like I say, you can get away with this at PSO, but it will hurt you at a higher level.

Folding that pp would have been fine and maybe correct if my all-in was bigger than the pot, but just terrible if you were getting 3-to-1 or 4-to-1 odds that you were getting. You need to develop a better understanding in this regard.

So two things I think you will benefit from:

1) Learning what a raise could mean based on the depth of money when it was made. FOr example, a full sized or more all-in says something potentially different to a less than full sized all-in. This will lead to more correct calls on your part.

2) Learning to call all-in raises/re-raises in the correct spots. This is also slightly related to number 1, in that you need to better identify the range of hands that you could be against depending on the all-in situatioan. This will have the added pyschological benefit of making players more likely to fold in close situations rather than move-in against you. This is very useful, especially near the end of tournaments where stealing is important.

Of course, my guess based on that one hand could be wrong, in which case ignore what I just said lol.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 04, 2002, 11:30 PM
(#20)
Deleted user
I think you are gonna have a giggle at this....

Noodles said:
Quote:
You open raised on the button and I moved in from the small blind. As I did so, I wished you luck or whatever, as there was no way I thought you would fold to my size bet. There was no intention on my part to push you off the hand, as the bet should have been too small to be able to do that. My all-in was way less then the pot. You thought for ages and then folded a pp saying you thought I had a bigger pair.
I remember that hand verrrrrry well. I was on a stone-cold bluff with 83o. I couldn't call, it would have destroyed my table image if anyone saw those cards. So I took time to make it look like I "agonized and mulled it over", and said I would fold to you becuase it was you (Noodles) and I thought you had a bigger pair.....LOL

Now, that instance not withstanding, there is still something for me in what you've said. And I very much appreciate your feedback, and please keep giving it to me. Thank-you.
 

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