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Pot control

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Pot control - Fri Aug 24, 2012, 11:07 AM
(#1)
hbhuang341's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 79
Hi guys,

PokerStarshand #85162022176: Toernooi #604550895, $1.08+$0.27+$0.15 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 24/08/2012 13:15:24 CET [24/08/2012 7:15:24 ET]
Tafel '604550895 2' 9-max Plaats #5 is de button
Plaats 1: yrsa2 (3955 in chips)
Plaats 2: BrumbyKen (8007 in chips)
Plaats 3: GoGoDAAnce (1719 in chips)
Plaats 4: Stixxem (4500 in chips)
Plaats 5: Don Martino4 (11460 in chips)
Plaats 6: zeLoonyOne (2101 in chips)
Plaats 8: maxtor2108 (7499 in chips)
Plaats 9: MagFH (4630 in chips)
zeLoonyOne: zet small blind 100
maxtor2108: zet big blind 200
*** GESLOTEN KAARTEN ***
Gedeeld aan Stixxem [Kd Ac]
MagFH: foldt
yrsa2: callt 200
BrumbyKen: foldt
GoGoDAAnce: foldt
Stixxem: raiset 200 naar 400
Don Martino4: callt 400
zeLoonyOne: foldt
maxtor2108: foldt
yrsa2: callt 200
*** FLOP *** [6s Qd Ks]
yrsa2: checkt
Stixxem: bet 600
Don Martino4: callt 600
yrsa2: callt 600
*** TURN *** [6s Qd Ks] [7c]
yrsa2: checkt
Stixxem: bet 1320
Don Martino4: callt 1320
yrsa2: callt 1320
*** RIVER *** [6s Qd Ks 7c] [2s]
yrsa2: bet 1635 en is all-in
Stixxem: foldt
Don Martino4: callt 1635
*** SHOWDOWN ***
yrsa2: toont [As 3s] (een flush, Aas hoog)
Don Martino4: toont [Kc 7d] (twee pair, Koningen en Zevens)
yrsa2 won 10530 van pot
*** SAMENVATTING ***
Totale pot 10530 | Rake 0
Board [6s Qd Ks 7c 2s]
Plaats 1: yrsa2 toonde [As 3s] en won (10530) met een flush, Aas hoog
Plaats 2: BrumbyKen foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)
Plaats 3: GoGoDAAnce foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)
Plaats 4: Stixxem foldde op de River
Plaats 5: Don Martino4 (button) toonde [Kc 7d] en verloor met twee pair, Koningen en Zevens
Plaats 6: zeLoonyOne (small blind) foldde voor de Flop
Plaats 8: maxtor2108 (big blind) foldde voor de Flop
Plaats 9: MagFH foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)

I've played few hands with Don Martino and yrsa2 and i know what their playstyle is,so i took some notes

-Don Martino:Loose Agg
Passive pre-flop w/ broadways,
Min raises w/ AQs+,TT+
Try to get free cards for his draw
When he hits,he will bet
Calls w/ top pair when he limped
Calls almost every pre-flop raise

-yrsa2:Loose Passive Caller
Bets top pair
Drawchaser
Limps a lot

My thought-process about this hand:

-Pre-flop:
I have AKo in the cutoff w/ a limper,so i decided to min-raises to 400,the reason i min-raised to 400 instead raising to 600 (3xBB) is that i dont have a lot fold equity to yrsa2(loose passive caller player) if i missed on the flop/turn/river.Lango also said in his vid:''Dont bluff against a loose passive caller''
Don Martino flatts and the blinds folds. I saw Don Martino limped hands like:72s,any Ax,Kx,Qx,Jx,pair,suited one gappers.So he had a very loose range,but i dont have a kind of read on him on that moment.

-Post-flop:
It was a KQ6 flop with 2 spades,so i made standard a c-bet around 40% of the pot.I made it 40% is because it was kind of a information bet,i wanted to get some value but also some information what their range was etc.Both of them calls.I've put yrsa on a flushdraw or a OESD and Don Martino with a pair of 6,Q,K with a weak kicker or A-high.

-Turn:
It was a 7c,in my opinion it was a brick.It didnt complete a flushdraw or a OESD.I only thing where i worried about was that Don Martino maybe slowplayed a set or 2 pair.
So i had 2 moves,pot controlling or get value from the turn and river.
I decided to bet for value is because i think my opp was weak ,but i'm still cautious that any draws will complete on the river.So i betted again 40%,i think i made a mistake here to not go all-in on the turn,i've already used 33% of my stack and i was pot committed on the river if i was going to bet for value.

-River:
River was a 2 of spade,yrsa2 shoves and i had to fold this for sure because he wont bluff at that point and because his play -style,loose passive caller.
Don Martino calls and shows 2 pair ...

I think i made a mistake to value-bet on the turn instead pot controlling on the turn or that i didnt went all-in.
In my opiniun,i played this hand pretty bad on the turn...so...Adivse please !!

Thanks all !

Last edited by hbhuang341; Fri Aug 24, 2012 at 01:16 PM..
 
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Fri Aug 24, 2012, 04:06 PM
(#2)
ChewMe1's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 574
Hey hbuang

With 23 big blinds and a limper behind us at 100/200 I like to ship it preflop, if we get folds we scoop up 2 and a half big blinds to our stack and if we get called we are always almost the favourite.

Seeing as there are no ante's I think it's ok to come in for a raise, but a min raise is not enough, what we are doing here is simply inviting the blinds to play aswell as the original limper, which decreases the chance of us winning the hand.

We want to get in as much money as we can when we have the best hand so I would make it 600 - 800 and play the hand from there.

It is definitely a mistake to be min raising AKo in a limped pot.


As played...

The pot size would be 1500 and with 4 of us to the flop we can c bet quite large and expect to be called by worse, so a bet of half the pot - two thirds of the pot is good.

The turn card is a great card for us and we have built a reasonably sized pot. With yrsa having less than a pot sized bet left, I like sticking it all in, I shove all in because I don't want dan mantino sticking around with any draws he may have, and this is a very wet board that is likely to be draw heavy for our opponents.

With the front door spade draw getting there on the river I guess we can fold to yrsa's 6 bb 'roughly quarter of the pot size' shove as we fear that one of these guys has us beat with a flush that we priced them in for.

All in all I recommend to isolate the limper with a reasonable sized raise (3x-4x), bet more on the flop, shove the turn.

Cheers, Chris.
 
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Fri Aug 24, 2012, 04:38 PM
(#3)
hbhuang341's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 79
Thanks for reply ChewMe1 ,but i have few questions .
-I usually make a min-raise in these stages,but with a limper,should i make a bet of BB+1BB for every limper?
-If Dan Martino flatted and yrsa calls,was smart to shove on the on flop to protect my for draws?
-I watched your training vids and a guy asked what your "betsize buttons" was,you said 40%-50%-60%.My question is,why these numbers and not like 33%-50%-66% or something.

Thanks ChewMe1 !
 
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Fri Aug 24, 2012, 04:53 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,841
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi hbhuang341!

Here's the way that I look at smaller bets.....

If I don't bet enough to make the opp have a -EV draw when I have the best hand, then ANY bet that I make, grows the pot and when the opp has a +EV draw, that means that my bets gain my opponents chips in the long run. If I can't price my opponents out, then I would check or fold.

Preflop for this level, my standard bet is 2.5BB+1BB for each limper. If I don't raise my bets to account for the limpers, then I invite too many opps to be drawing at whatever hand I have, and I'd much rather be up against less opps than more, as it makes post-flop play much easier.

On the flop or turn, it normally takes at least a 1/2 pot bet to price opps out of a draw when I have the best hand (this will vary depending on the types of draws out there and also on how many opponents are on the pot), but I try to use 1/2 pot as my baseline.

The only time that I bet lower is on the river. Here, I'll make a bet based on what size I think the opp will call. It may be 1/3 pot, 1/2 pot or more... and will pick this based on the pot size, opps chip stack and how much I think they will call.

Hope this helps.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Aug 25, 2012, 06:16 AM
(#5)
hbhuang341's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 79
Hi JWK24,Chewme1!

Well,i dont know that those players understand what EV+ and EV- means.Maybe about implied odds,cuz i bet so small on the flop and turn.

If antes kicked in,would you still raise 2,5xBB+1BB every limper or min-raising+1BB every limper?

Why would you bet 1/2 on the flop and bet one more time 1/2 of the pot,you are already pot committed.Was it better to go all-in on the turn for value and protecting your hand or bet for value on flop/turn/river?

I also wanted to pot control.I know what pot control means,giving free card and keeps the pot small to value-bet on the river(Correct me if i'm wrong),but when do you use it?

Thanks !
 
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Sat Aug 25, 2012, 12:25 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,841
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Here are the preflop standard bets that I use.

blinds lower than 100/200, 3BB+1BB for each limper
starting at 100/200, 2.5BB+1BB for each limper
starting at 1k/2k, 2.2BB+1BB for each limper

The 1/2 pot number that I listed is what I use in general (could also be 2/3, 3/4 or pot sized depending on the situation)... if one of them pot commits me in a hand, then I would shove there instead of betting 1/2 pot.

When I know I'm ahead in the hand, I will size my bets to make sure that any opp drawing at me has a -EV draw. When I use pot control is when I'm in a huge multi-way pot or when I'm the one drawing and not ahead at that point in time.

Hope this helps!

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Aug 25, 2012, 05:32 PM
(#7)
hbhuang341's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 79
Thanks JWK,it helped a lot ,i wont make that mistake again !!!
 
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Sat Aug 25, 2012, 07:05 PM
(#8)
ChewMe1's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 574
Hey hbuang341

Typically, with antes involved my standard raise is a min raise or a 2.1x raise.


If somebody before us has limped into the pot then I'm going to raise an extra 1bb than what I usually would.. so if the blinds are 100/200 with a 25 ante I'm likely to make it 600 to go, If we are both fairly deep 35 ish bb's or more then I'l make it 700-800 to go (3x+1bb for the limp).

Your right I do have my bet options set at, 40%, 50% and 60%. Out of the three of them I'd say I use 40% the most.
Deep in an MTT the typical c bet size is around the 40% ballmark, so what I like to do is click the 40% bet button, then maybe alter the bet a little bit to my preference ( i,e I clicked 40% pot and the bet is 21346, I alter the bet to say 22050.. add a little more or take a little less depending on the situation etc.

I generally use the 60% bet button just as a guide to what 60% of the pot actually is, If I feel the need to bet big to get an opponent off of a hand or to make my hand look like a bluff I will click the 60% button and again, alter the bet size by adding a little or taking a little.

This helps me a substantial amount when I'm multitabling.

I hope I cleared things up a bit hb

Cheers, Chris.
 
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Sun Aug 26, 2012, 01:42 PM
(#9)
hbhuang341's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 79
It cleared,thanks guys !!!
 

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