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3 bet bluff handselection

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3 bet bluff handselection - Sun Sep 02, 2012, 10:05 AM
(#1)
Villmann's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 35
Hi, i read an artickle where it was said to 3 bet bluff with these hands in position in 6 max. My question is why should i fold ATo and KJo and 3 bet bluff with hands shown below? are ATo and KJo really weaker hands than any hand from the 3 bet bluff list below?


3 bet bluff 5 bet bluff flat

22+
A9s-A6s A5s-A2s ATs+ AJo+
K9s-K6s KTs+ KQo
Q9s-Q6s QTs+
J9s-J6s JTs
T8s-T7s T9s
97s-96s 98s
87s-86s
76s-75s
65s
 
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Sun Sep 02, 2012, 10:10 AM
(#2)
Villmann's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 35
This is a messed up post where 3 bet bluff 5 bet bluff and flat went together for some reason. I sent new with only 3 bet bluff list
 
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Sun Sep 02, 2012, 10:52 AM
(#3)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
No need to repost. Just click the "Edit" button immediately under yor post and change as needed the click "Save".
 
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Sun Sep 02, 2012, 01:33 PM
(#4)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villmann View Post
Hi, i read an artickle where it was said to 3 bet bluff with these hands in position in 6 max. My question is why should i fold ATo and KJo and 3 bet bluff with hands shown below? are ATo and KJo really weaker hands than any hand from the 3 bet bluff list below?


3 bet bluff 5 bet bluff flat

22+
A9s-A6s A5s-A2s ATs+ AJo+
K9s-K6s KTs+ KQo
Q9s-Q6s QTs+
J9s-J6s JTs
T8s-T7s T9s
97s-96s 98s
87s-86s
76s-75s
65s

When I'm looking for learning materials on the internet, that's always the challenge, eh? Of wondering who you can trust? Like where did they get their info ... is it from personal experience playing only one specific type of game, and are there assumptions they've made like that people have x number of HUD stats on the opponent, or whatever?

So I wind up having to read like a gazillion articles to amass info from all across the spectrum, and then find myself having to sort through everything,cross-checking stuff, and looking for similarities and differences ... half the time there's so many gaps in info I just wind up having to experiment with all the ideas through trial and error to see if I can get any of the stuff to work ... and most of the time, well part of the problem could be me, but most of the time the results are kind of meh ...

There was this chart on another site that I'm not allowed to list by name, but JWK said I could post the data of the EV of some starting hands based on position for the average player:



That's all that was included in the chart though :/

It does show A5s as having greater EV on average than ATo and KJo ... but it's showing a lot of the other hands as being not that great, like K6s. Not sure I'd feel comfortable 3bet bluffing with that sort of hand.

But it's an interesting list you posted because I noticed there seems to be a lot more of that 3bet bluffing up at 5nl zoom, and one day I'll maybe be trying to take a shot up there, so even if I don't do too much of that sort of 'fancy', it's good to know what others might be doing it with, eh?

Then again, it's hard to play a hand like TT out of position ... I guess if I got 3bet by the button and I was utg, I'd have to fold? :/


I don't know ... still have my hands full at 2nl ...
 
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Sun Sep 02, 2012, 08:24 PM
(#5)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
One thing to remember is that a 3-bet with a fair hand is really not a bluff but a semi-bluff. A 3-bet with a decent, but not great, hand is a value bet when someone is raising light which is very likely in 6-max as it rewards aggression more than a full table

Good decisions.
 
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Mon Sep 03, 2012, 07:34 AM
(#6)
craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246
There may be reasons for why they said this, but without seeing those reasons and agreeing with them, i would have to disagree. Depending on the stakes, with different types of players and hand ranges maybe.

But in the micro's its all about playing strong hands (preferably in position) and value betting.

It could be good play dependent on the opponent, but I'd be happier just waiting for a better spot.
 
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Mon Sep 03, 2012, 09:25 AM
(#7)
Villmann's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 35
KJo, ATo, QJo should be folded according to the article i read. these 3 hands are not in the flat list, not in the 3 bet bluff list, and not in the 3 bet for value list. so i end up never playing KJo,ATo, QJo. instead it says to 3 bet bluff with J6s,Q6s. last two hands seem weaker than KJo, ATo,QJo to me. To my knowledge i should be 3 bet bluffing with the best hands that are too weak to flat. One explanation could be that if my 3 bet gets called then the caller has AQ AK QK hands that crush my KJ AT, they are dominated hard. but the same articke said that its never correct to call 3 bet OOP . that means my 3 bet bluff hands never get to see the flop. so why 3 bet with Q6s and not with ATo , they both will not see the flop but AT has A as a blocker against possible 4 bet. it blocks AA,AK,AQ.it makes sence to me to only 3 bet bluff with Ax hands for that reason when im IP. when im OOP then i should have some other hands as well because its now correct to call 3 bet IP for my opponent and my 3 bet bluff hands now will see flops.
 
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Mon Sep 03, 2012, 10:13 AM
(#8)
craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246
Most of the time my 3bet range is AK, JJ+.

AQ and TT i will flat, possibly 99 or AJs depending on the opponent.

Occasionally i will 3bet bluff depending on the opponent, if they fold to 3bets often. Or if they always call 3bets but have a high fold to cbet stat.

If someone 4bets and you have a marginal hand its gone. And often the 3bet caller will have you crushed, so be in position, so you can attack weakness if you see it.

A lot of the time my 3bet bluffs can be with marginal hands that if i get called i can easily get away from unlike AJ, if i hit top pair A, and someone has called there is still a good chance that I'm beat as AK and AQ are a good portion of calling ranges. Also Kxs Qxs and Jxs hands have the potential to flop really hard with a top flush and the board also hitting the opponents range so you can get stacks in, might be a possibility on why those cards were suggested.
 
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Mon Sep 03, 2012, 06:30 PM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Three-bet bluffing is totally ahead of my skill-set, so I'm not feeling very motivated to look too much into it right now

But maybe I should feel more motivated to look into it more, what with it being more common up at 5nl. Because sometimes I get too clingy to my comfort zone and don't want to try too much that's new ...


When I learn about new concepts though, what I do is:

1. Read everything until I've mined all the data out of the articles - that'll give the layout of the land of the current body of knowledge. Like by doing that, will give:
- the theory behind the concept - why it's +EV
- stuff to be cautious about (like, danger zones)
- the most common hands that people 3bet bluff
- and why
- the strange hands that only some people play
- and (hopefully) why
- any assumptions that people have made, or any limitations that people have put on their choices
- also there should be some examples of these ideas in practice


So in going by my template, like I wouldn't bother to worry about what one person recommends if they don't give an explanation until I know that it's a common recommendation? And until I know the rationale behind the idea of 3bet bluffing, so I at least have a framework in place for evaluating that person's idea to see if it might be +EV or not?

Maybe I'll look into stuff a bit later ... all I saw so far is that peoples 3bet ranges should only be about 6-8%. So if people are 3betting QQ+, AQ+ for value, then there's only so much room left for bluffs, eh? So K6s already seems like kind of an extreme recommendation. Will maybe look more into stuff later ... like, maybe not today, but later ... Will see

Sam
 
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Tue Sep 04, 2012, 01:44 AM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Wow, so I skimmed over a bunch of stuff and this move sounds interesting.

And it turns out everybody's got K6s in their 3bet bluff range. But from looking around it seemed like people were saying ATo isn't in the 3bet bluff range because it's good enough for a call?




Also you know what ... this stuff is WAY above my skill set - I play 2nl zoom, and my biggest challenge is *still* learning how to fold But I've always had a knack for sifting through large volumes of data, so that's all that I'm doing here, and if anybody does a google search you'll probably see a lot of articles that generally say the same things.

Would be really interesting to hear from somebody who's actually got a 3bet bluffing range to hear what it's like though, eh?


Anyways, here's a summary of what I was able to find out:

So like apparently 3bet bluffing is one of those advanced concepts, analogous to blinds stealing and cbetting, in that it's about playing the person. Cards are only intended to come into play as a fall-back of last resort.

And the 'target' person is the same type of person that's better to blinds steal and cbet against - somebody tightish who has high fold %'s. Like you know how like it's easier to blinds steal against people who have 80%+ FTS, and to cbet against people who have like 80% FTCbet? Similarly, the cbet bluff is ONLY intended to be used against somebody with like a 70% FT3bet percent ... ideally higher, at around 80%+.

Also, just like with blinds stealing and cbetting, 3bet bluffing relies on position and math to try and squeeze value out of hands that would otherwise be considered junk (unplayable).

Here's the math behind the 3bet bluff ... I'm not allowed to give the link, but I guess people can google it to find out who the author is, so that it's attributed to the right source. Anyways, basically what the poster said was that the 'target' only needs to fold to 3bets 66% of the time for a 3x 3bet to be profitable, and if a person has a FTCb % of 80%, then you would expect it to be profitable:



Apparently everybody's come up with that range because it's the best of the 'junk hands' ... like you might want to call a cut-off blinds steal attempt on the button with a hand like ATo, 89s, or 55. So if you'd want to play those hands for value, then all that's left is the 'junk'. And the best of the 'junk' would be cards with a high value (A,K,Q), suiteds, and connecteds/gappers?


So that's the part that everybody generally agrees upon. The rest seems to have different schools of thought about when/where/how much to use this move.

Because there's three possible scenarios where one could 3bet bluff:

1. Into UTG raisers who are value-betting, who will 4bet parts of their range (which a 3bet bluffer would then fold to), fold parts of their range (hands like 88-TT, KQs, etc), and call with parts of their range (hands like JJ, AQo).

2. On the button into an active CO raiser with a high steal %, who won't be able to play a lot of their hands out of position.

3. OOP from the blinds into late position stealers with high steal %'s.


And apparently the least risky scenario tends to be #2, against the active CO raiser? Because the UTG raiser will tend to be strong, and OOP in the blinds there's less fold equity because raisers from the CO and D might be tempted to call since they would have position post-flop.

So some people who will 3bet bluff into CO raisers won't do it in scenarios #1 or #3.


Another difference of opinion emerged when it comes to whether or not to double-barrel post-flop with a cbet bluff if there's a call. Some people said it might be okay if the person also has a high FTCb%, while others felt it was better to just give up and try again if the flop didn't bring with it potential.


So then you know what, after reading about all this stuff, I got so curious I decided to give it a try ... and because I don't know what I'm doing I screwed up the criteria, and the hand sort of spiralled out of control. But I did wind up getting two folds and winning a hand with air :/



http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=E02FD8C181


So I guess with experience, like maybe there's some room there to squeeze out a little value with lesser hands by using one's HUD stats, taking advantage of position, and knowing the math?

I don't think I'm going to be doing that again any time soon. But for people who are more advanced who might be tempted to give this a try ... let us know how it goes

Last edited by TrustySam; Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 01:59 AM..
 
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Wed Sep 05, 2012, 12:39 AM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
I ran out of time to do a 'Part 2' yesterday ... like come up with a simple plan, based on ^^^?

So this was like 'Part 1':
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
1. Read everything until I've mined all the data out of the articles - that'll give the layout of the land of the current body of knowledge. Like by doing that, will give:
- the theory behind the concept - why it's +EV
- stuff to be cautious about (like, danger zones)
- the most common hands that people 3bet bluff
- and why
- the strange hands that only some people play
- and (hopefully) why
- any assumptions that people have made, or any limitations that people have put on their choices
- also there should be some examples of these ideas in practice

So here's 'Part 2'...

Like basically, isn't the '3bet bluff' a resteal? I think that's all it is if you limit it strictly to active blinds stealers from the cut-off, when you're on the button?

It's almost like an amped up blinds steal, eh? Where you're not only stealing the blinds from the BB and SB, but also the raise from the CO who is also likely to be holding a marginal hand they're not likely to want to play out of position?

And so then, when you think of it as more of a 'super-steal' ... like this recommended range of 3bet-bluff/resteal hands doesn't even seem that loose compared to the recommended range for stealing blinds against people who are likely to fold. Like look at Verneer's recommended button-stealing range into folders - it's WAY wider than the hands recommended for a 3bet bluff (aka resteal): Tag Part 1.


Verneer was also noting how wide a typical CO blinds stealing range will be for even TAGS to show just how hard it'll likely be for them to call with most of those hands. Like based on that typical range, he'd expect the average TAG to wind up folding about 75% of those hands to a reraise from the button: 26-30% CO Stealing Range


So maybe a resteal isn't so scary after all?


Somebody did it to me in a tourney once and did it ever work on me ... d'oh! I didn't even think they had anything, but A8s is kind of hard to play OOP, eh? :/


http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=F59B159F29


So maybe there's something to it?



So the articles all seem to be saying that the following situation might a potential 3bet-bluff/spot:

1. CO has a high steal% from that spot
2. CO has a high FT3B%
3. BB and SB both have high FTsteal%
4. Your hand is one that falls on the chart



I guess maybe this is a move though that's maybe better suited to people who are already comfortable with blinds stealing, and also maybe cbetting post-flop if you intend to try and continue to take down the pot? But some people if called recommend just shutting things down since the person is likely pretty strong if they called?

And then apparently something else to be cautious about is one's 'resteal%' stat, because if it's high, people who are looking for it'll be able to tell that you sometimes 3bet bluff?


That's all I was able to get out of the articles ... it'd sure be interesting to hear from somebody who does this though!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 12:44 AM..
 
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Wed Sep 05, 2012, 11:59 PM
(#12)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
Although I've never done it myself, I did get 5 bet the other day by 67s. I had pocket kings, and ended up losing to a flopped full house. There was just no way to put the opponent on that hand, who 5 bets 67s??

 
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Thu Sep 06, 2012, 12:04 AM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Yikes!

Maybe too much Poker After Dark, eh?




I would love to know what Phil Ivey knows! How does he always know??


 
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Wed Nov 07, 2012, 01:11 PM
(#14)
ravenqueen76's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 75
thanks for the post

i do 3B bluff and all i can say is that it depends on the opponent. my 3Betting range is what they call polarized. its either very bad (to bluff) or very good (for value)

hands i 3B for value are QQ+ AK. but it depends again on the opponent, against a very loose agrresive opponent my 3betting for value widens to include hands like AQ and JJ.

my air hand are the hands i dont want to call with for example K9o. KQ,KJ hands are hands i will call with depending on the stacksizes, opponent, position etc

and to make it more difficult i will also call with the top of my range if i feel that i will gain more value by calling than by 3betting.

all i can say is just be patient, learn the game and get confident. you will find that one day you just 3B bluffed someone because you felt the time and spot was right
 
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Wed Nov 07, 2012, 01:17 PM
(#15)
ravenqueen76's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by joy7108 View Post
Although I've never done it myself, I did get 5 bet the other day by 67s. I had pocket kings, and ended up losing to a flopped full house. There was just no way to put the opponent on that hand, who 5 bets 67s??

well...maniacs will but it also depends on the stacksizes.
when the stacks get deep 150bb+ suited connectors go up in value vs top pair hands.

just make a note about the hand, so you know this is a looser more agressive opponent
 

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