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In big blind, button open shoves.

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In big blind, button open shoves. - Tue Sep 04, 2012, 01:46 PM
(#1)
craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246
What do you do if your in the bb and 1 player before you open shoves and everyone folds. If you holding AKo, I've seen a lot of regular players been happy going with this hand preflop. I just encountered this situation in zoom and I elected to fold and immediately sat out and went to poker stove.

I would range someone at AA, KK, QQ with possibly AKo and AKs.

Now against this range AKo has 39% equity, so I'm happy with my fold.

I also tried out a few other hands that people would go with preflop:

AKo 39%
AKs 42%
JJ 36%
QQ 40%
KK 57%
AA 84%

So it seems like AA and KK are the only 2 hands that it would be profitable to call this shove with. I started playing multi-table SNG's and recently moved over to trying out some cash games, so this seems totally wrong to my standard thinking. But I did lay it down and after the calculations I'd be happy folding anything but AA and KK.

Question is, would other people be calling here with worse hands? And have they, because I'm sure I've made a few of these calls myself and it seems a definite -ev spot.

Its different if its a 3 or 4bet and then a shove though, so I'm not saying i wouldn't go with worse hands preflop, if you 4bet AKo and someone shoves, then to call you have less than 39% of the pots chips to put in I'm guessing and it would be a +ev play then.

Just thought it would be interesting to share my thoughts on this.
 
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all in - Tue Sep 04, 2012, 02:59 PM
(#2)
bearxing's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 499
In freerolls microstakes and rebuys the all in range are much wider than that. I have seen 72o all in first hand of a tournament. So it really depends on what type of tournament and what buyin it is. Of course this is just a generality and is not without exceptions, you can find nits at any level that may have a very tight range.

Good luck
Doug


3 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue Sep 04, 2012, 03:42 PM
(#3)
craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246
Oh sorry, didn't actually say, this is for NLHE cash games only. I know that's an all in tournaments, I'm meaning cash where we're generally 100bb deep all the time.
 
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Wed Sep 05, 2012, 08:59 PM
(#4)
kiroman68's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 113
Yea man, as said already from the friend above, almost depend from your opponents and also the type of game you are playing, the stack size any read you have on them too
 
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Wed Sep 05, 2012, 09:17 PM
(#5)
craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246
This spot came up in zoom, and an open shove, this is some of the math behind the spot. Range could be looser but could also be tighter, so I went for the middle ground, and did some math, to give a rough idea of equity and value of certain hands.

Stack size isn't a huge impact, unless villain is really short. Because you'd still be in a -ev spot in the long run by calling.

For calling an open shove for half the amount the opponent needs a shoving range of:
88+
ATs+
AQo+

That give you equity of 50.291%

Last edited by craig121212; Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 10:06 PM..
 
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Thu Sep 06, 2012, 06:38 AM
(#6)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi craig

As above posters have said it is read dependant. However in my experience playing 2nl if someone openshoves they are often doing it for 'value'.

Even against a pretty tight range of AQs+ AKo and TT+ you have 43% equity with AKo. However they are probably shoving looser than this; the range you give above is probably pretty accurate, I would go something like AJs+ AQo+ and 66+. You are flipping against this range so I would call.

Interesting post Craig.


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Thu Sep 06, 2012, 06:42 AM
(#7)
Barbzz's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 51
BronzeStar
Hi all

I think that you can eliminate AA and probably KK from his range, people are rarely going to play them this way 100BB deep.. Once AA and KK aren't considered, your equity vs his range will jump up making it a +EV call with AK imo
 
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Thu Sep 06, 2012, 09:04 AM
(#8)
craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246
Barbzz I play micro limits so 2NL and 5NL, most of the time shoves like this are for value.

And Croyd against the range you suggested, we actually have 48.6% equity, in the long run this is still a -ev play to call. If it was a 4bet shove or even a 5bet it's a totally different story because 3-4betting AKo is good play and then the remaining money you have to put in the pot will be less than the 48.6% of the total pot that you need to be +ev.

Even stretching it out to include both barbzz and croyd's thoughts, QQ-66, AJs+, AQo+.
With our hand being AKo we have 51.3% equity, this is just a +ev play if were totally sure that KK and AA aren't in their ranges.

Last edited by craig121212; Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 09:06 AM..
 
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Thu Sep 06, 2012, 09:20 AM
(#9)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig121212 View Post
Barbzz I play micro limits so 2NL and 5NL, most of the time shoves like this are for value.

And Croyd against the range you suggested, we actually have 48.6% equity, in the long run this is still a -ev play to call. If it was a 4bet shove or even a 5bet it's a totally different story because 3-4betting AKo is good play and then the remaining money you have to put in the pot will be less than the 48.6% of the total pot that you need to be +ev.

Even stretching it out to include both barbzz and croyd's thoughts, QQ-66, AJs+, AQo+.
With our hand being AKo we have 51.3% equity, this is just a +ev play if were totally sure that KK and AA aren't in their ranges.
Hi Craig,

With nearly 50% equity I am calling off my chips, especially at the micro limits. To quote a term Dave coined in one of his session, we have to take account for the 'spaz factor'.

At the micro's it's often true that when an opponent makes a move like this they are often doing it for value however they might also just spaz out and shove a random hand or even one like KQs that we dominate. Given that they're making plays like this then it is probably true that they are not a very good player so I think there's an element of a spaz factor involved and this is why I am willing to call even with a slight equity defficet.

I suppose it depends on your style of play but personally I'm willing to call in the situation you described.

Oliver

Edit: Why don't you post the hand for analysis, it'll be interesting to see what the trainers make of it. Good post


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Last edited by Croyd93; Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 09:24 AM..
 
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Thu Sep 06, 2012, 09:23 AM
(#10)
PokerPest72's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 247
BronzeStar
In zoom you have 0 reads on a op and cannot range an op, it's half a game of poker now could you imagine folding them cards sitting on a single table?

zoom,rush,speed its all the same, slot machine poker for the masses. I am really not as big fan of this game format, making poker faster does not mean you are going to win more money faster.

Has that op just had a sick beat the hand before and blown his top and shoved light? you will never know that is the thing about this game format.

Last edited by PokerPest72; Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 09:34 AM.. Reason: extra
 
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Thu Sep 06, 2012, 09:36 AM
(#11)
craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246
I think I might just do that croyd will be really interesting, I was going to post it there first, but then it wasn't a specific hand that needed analysis so wasn't sure if it should go there.

Zoom isn't half a game of poker, you play differently yes, and need a different skillset a little, you have to think more on value, and ranging your opponents better because you can't rely on reads, I feel like zoom requires a lot more actual thinking about each spot because you can't just sit at a table for 200 hands and know how every person plays. If you play good poker in zoom your still going to win money, maybe not quite as high a bb/100 as normal tables, but with the volume you get you'll achieve a higher bb/hr. Also if you have the skills to play zoom, you'll find a lot of other players don't and zoom can be very profitable for you.

Zoom also isn't readless, at the end of each session I go through my history making notes on all the showdowns and how all the players played those hands, seeing if theres a difference to preflop raises how they play monsters vs. marginal hands etc. It takes longer to acquire reads but you still get them, and if you go back and play the same tables again your likely to run into a lot of the same people.

Last edited by craig121212; Thu Sep 06, 2012 at 09:38 AM..
 
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Fri Sep 07, 2012, 10:56 AM
(#12)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
+10000 to all of what craig says.

As he says zoom certainly isn't readless, yes there are lots of players in the player pool meaning there will be many players that are unknown but by watching, reviewing and making notes you can gather a lot of info on players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPest72 View Post
zoom,rush,speed its all the same, slot machine poker for the masses. I am really not as big fan of this game format, making poker faster does not mean you are going to win more money faster.
It is definately not slot machine poker, you still have to range your opponents and decide the best course of action. Just because there is less info does not mean that skill doesn't play any part. Maybe for you making poker faster doesn't mean you will win money faster but it certainly does for me; not only do I play many more hands per hour I actually have a better BB/100 at zoom, the sample size may not be huge but it surely means something.



Bigger here


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Fri Sep 07, 2012, 02:19 PM
(#13)
craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246
Really interesting how your stats for both are so similar but your bb/100 is so different.

I wonder what makes such a huge difference.
 
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Mon Sep 10, 2012, 01:04 PM
(#14)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
This is a spot in general that we aren't going to "solve."

I have seen 200bb open shoves with KJo in fast games and have seen 300bb open shoves w AA.

Stack size does matter, a lot. Typically here are some things I look for.

1. If villain is a fish and has less chips than he did before in the same session.

If I have played a few hands with someone who is a fish, and I notice they now have 56bb instead of 93 as they did in a previous hand, then I am going to very happily call an open shove w AKo since I assume there is a high probability that their tilt index is rising.

2. Size of the shove

Calling 50bb shoves or less with AKo is rarely going to be a huge mistake, unless you are doing it against a known nit. Let's say our equity is 45%. That means that for every 10bb we call, we play a 20bb pot with 45% equity, expected value is 9bb. So every 10bb shove we call with 45% equity we lose 1bb. Well, calling a 100bb shove will lose us 10bb then, and calling a 50bb shove will lose us 5. This is what I mean by stack size being important. If we somehow wind up with only 30% equity then calling a 40bb shove is going to be a smaller mistake, on average.

3. Can our opponent hold AQ? If the answer is no, then the move is almost always to fold. If you can assign weaker unpaired hands than AQ, then the move is usually to call.

Hope this helps

Gareth
 
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Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:06 PM
(#15)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...859_2B784791AE

Let's see if this works. Here is a nice example for this thread which just happened.

another

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...914_6C86EF0043

Last edited by GarethC23; Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 12:16 PM..
 
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Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:42 PM
(#16)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
I personally think that knowing the players is the most important tool you'll have

You can take notes on players when playing Zoom, you just need to know shorthand ... LOL

To me, having equity or not, pot odds or not, will not dictate my play in this situation (AK in the BB with a shove). What will dictate, are the notes I have on the player, his previous plays, his stack size and if he's a regular (in Zoom, you can see how many tables he's playing, if it's not Zoom, than right click on the player to see how many tables he's got open).

Like Gareth said, people will shove with anything, even at very high stakes and more often a low stakes.

Know the players you are facing
Good luck
 
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i agree. - Sun Sep 16, 2012, 12:39 PM
(#17)
f1shba1t462's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 3
this should be a very easy fold as ako is beaten by twos to aa.
 
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Sun Sep 16, 2012, 09:58 PM
(#18)
Garrns's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...859_2B784791AE

Let's see if this works. Here is a nice example for this thread which just happened.

another

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...914_6C86EF0043
And there I thought crazy stuff like that only happened downstairs in 2nl land .
 

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