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2nl Zoom - KK OTB. Double barrel for value?

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2nl Zoom - KK OTB. Double barrel for value? - Tue Sep 11, 2012, 07:36 AM
(#1)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

I think both preflop and the flop are pretty standard. Preflop I iso on the limper and on the flop make a c-bet for value. However the turn is the street I'm struggling with, can I bet the turn for value or am I only going to get called by better hands?

On the flop when I bet and he calls I think he can be pretty wide, a lot of PP and missed paint will call (I think) as well as an ace, sets and 2 pair. However when I double barrel the turn am I only getting called by and ace, set or 2 pair? Would I be better checking behind to try and get value from worse hands on the river?

Thanks for any help.

Oliver


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Tue Sep 11, 2012, 08:24 AM
(#2)
Kedan87's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 74
I don't think you can bet for value here, but then again checking will give a free card to the straight and flush draws that the Tc brought in, although these are unlikely with that flop. If the turn was a blank it would be an easy check to keep the worst hands in, but this one I would struggle with betting to price out the draws and checking to keep worst hands in. I would probably go with caution and check this, but then I'm not too happy with checking.

I'm interested to see what a trainer would do.
 
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Tue Sep 11, 2012, 12:08 PM
(#3)
Fadyen's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,917
Firtsly a limp in the CO then a flat out of position, smells weak to me. I'm betting all the time here on the turn. I think my kings are good a fair amount of the time and when they're not aggression can get weak aces to fold. I'm not really afraid of sets since he limped in but if he has one he would probably raise a turn bet and we can get away. And if he's drawing make him pay to do so.
We can be called by worse and get better to fold imo, it's the best play.
Checking on the other hand gives the villain the inciative. If the river comes a scare card completing some striaght or flush draw or even if it comes a blank and the villain bombs the river we feel sick and have to fold what may be the best hand a lot of the time.

Would be nice to see how the hand played out.



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Tue Sep 11, 2012, 12:47 PM
(#4)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hey Oliver

I think there are two ways to play the hand in a better way than you have so far. First is to check back the flop and second is, if you are going to bet the flop, to bet smaller.

As your flop bet size goes up, the villain's average calling hand goes up in strength. So on a dry ace high board, we should be betting half pot or less, since we don't want that hand strength to go up to a point where it is top pair or better.

That being said I like a check. We don't need to protect our hand. This is the driest possible board, particularly for our hand. We can elicit a turn bluff or bet for value when checked to. So that would be my plan.

It is really important to have a plan when you get into hands like this. My go to plan would be to choose between a) bet flop/check turn b) check flop/bet turn. I like plan b. If you choose plan a you should already have the check button ready on the turn, because as you suspect, you can't bet for value. I am not worried about protecting from backdoor club draws or gutshots. Those protection concerns are quite minimal.
 
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Tue Sep 11, 2012, 04:06 PM
(#5)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Cheers for all the comments guys

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
I think there are two ways to play the hand in a better way than you have so far. First is to check back the flop and second is, if you are going to bet the flop, to bet smaller.

As your flop bet size goes up, the villain's average calling hand goes up in strength. So on a dry ace high board, we should be betting half pot or less, since we don't want that hand strength to go up to a point where it is top pair or better.
I've never actually thought much about my flop bet sizing until recently, when you mentioned it in another post of mine. I'm definitely going to start experimenting with making my value bets a little smaller on dry flops to encourage more worse hands to call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadyen View Post
Would be nice to see how the hand played out.
Here is the rest of the hand, I decided to bet and he called, this was when i realised I thought I should have checked the turn as I realised his 2 barrel calling range was probably ahead of my kings. Luckily I binked a K on the river and stacks went in.

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Quick question though... if the king doesn't come on the river can I call his river bet or am I running into an A or better?

Thanks again.

Oliver


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Last edited by Croyd93; Tue Sep 11, 2012 at 04:14 PM..
 
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Wed Sep 12, 2012, 03:38 AM
(#6)
Kedan87's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 74
I don't think you can call that river bet without the K coming out. You've shown strength on both the flop and turn and he donk bets the river for less than half the pot. This can only be a value bet at 2NL, and I couldn't even see pocket Q's wanting to value bet here.
 

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