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2nl 6-Max Zoom Semi-Bluffing Suited Connectors with a Draw - Part 2

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2nl 6-Max Zoom Semi-Bluffing Suited Connectors with a Draw - Part 2 - Sun Sep 30, 2012, 12:21 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Part 1 here: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...971#post366971


Here's a slightly similar situation to part 1, except it wasn't a 3bet pot, was multi-way, had better odds on the turn (except I didn't notice), etc.



Villains' HUD info:

SB



UTG



[P] Called 2Bet from blinds range {97o} (1)


Sam

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Sep 30, 2012 at 09:26 PM..
 
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Sun Sep 30, 2012, 08:49 PM
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Hey Sam

Here is an interesting situation to contrast the other. I think we definitely want to raise the flop, in fact, if we could have our way, we would get all-in. What's so great about this situation is that we dominate every draw and are ahead of hands like AdAh.

We also face the possibility of a turned overcard which could leave us uncertain of how to proceed, or should we turn a spade, we could lose our action.

I think we are definitely going to have fold equity with the flop raise, which was good to see. On the turn we just have the whole world as our oyster. I would definitely go all-in on this turn. Very few bad things can happen if we get all the money in on the turn and many good things can happen.

We make sure we get all the money in when we make the best hand by the river (with a turn all-in), and we make sure we never fold the best hand on the river as well.

That's the way I would go. We have a monster
 
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Sun Sep 30, 2012, 09:40 PM
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Another wow ...

Wow ...

I've been working really hard to learn pot odds and stuff, so I've got the basics of that down pretty good ...

But thinking ahead to future streets and how it could improve or hurt our hand, or the ability to extract value ... that seems like it must be a pretty huge advantage for people who do that

I wonder if maybe the sb would have been willing to call a turn shove with a hand like JT that they weren't willing to call even a small raise with on the river ... so much lost value there if I had anticipated that


This feedback was awesome Gareth - thanks so much ... I feel it helping already, although it may not show up on my graph for awhile what with the implementation issues and stuff. With time and practice though, I'll get there eventually

Thx!!
 
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Sat Nov 24, 2012, 07:37 AM
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^^^
Had a feeling this one was gonna take some time

note to self

LESSON: Boy, do I ever get excited when my middling suited connecter/gappers flop 'big'. But maybe not all 'flush draw + 'something else'' are the same? Not sure I fully picked up on that subtle point the first time around? Because I don't think ahead to later streets maybe? Like not always?


Stronger flops might be:

- flush draw plus TP and an over
- flush draw plus open-ended straight draw
- flush draw plus middle pair and a backdoor straight draw
(- also flush draw plus overs? or maybe flush draw plus overs plus a gut shot? hmmm not sure ...)


Not so great, in that the hand has little chance to improve by the turn might be:

- flush draw plus bottom pair when it's obvious somebody already has a better pair
- flush draw plus a gut shot


Will have to follow up on this later ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 08:13 AM..
 
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Sat Nov 24, 2012, 11:49 AM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
^^^
Had a feeling this one was gonna take some time

note to self

LESSON: Boy, do I ever get excited when my middling suited connecter/gappers flop 'big'. But maybe not all 'flush draw + 'something else'' are the same? Not sure I fully picked up on that subtle point the first time around? Because I don't think ahead to later streets maybe? Like not always?


Stronger flops might be:

- flush draw plus TP and an over
- flush draw plus open-ended straight draw
- flush draw plus middle pair and a backdoor straight draw
(- also flush draw plus overs? or maybe flush draw plus overs plus a gut shot? hmmm not sure ...)


Not so great, in that the hand has little chance to improve by the turn might be:

- flush draw plus bottom pair when it's obvious somebody already has a better pair
- flush draw plus a gut shot


Will have to follow up on this later ...
Also your position, as well as how many players are in the pot.

The more people in the pot:

1) The less likely you are to win, monster or not.
2) Fold equity goes down.
3) Aggressie actions by villains on the flop carry more weight because there is a higher chance they have something.
4) The higher your implied odds when you hit your monster.

When in position:

1) You can often set the price on your draw.
2) You get more opportunities to take free cards if desired.
3) You get to decide how to play your draw after seeing what actions your opponents have taken.

In my opinion, the way to look at a situation like this is to first consider your position in the hand, relative (to preflop aggressor) and absolute. Then look at how many people are currently involved in the pot. Then, finally, do what you stated in your post.

Another important point not mentioned in your post(although I'm guessing you do think about this some):

When evaluating the strength of the flop, consider your opponents hand ranges.

This is second level thinking as you are thinking about what the flop means to you as well as what the flop probably means to your opponents. If there were an equation to represent flop strength for you, you and your cards would only be a part of that equation.

I guess the point I'm trying to get at Sam is that while your post has some good info in it, it just seems like you are kind of getting tunnel-vision and focusing on only one aspect of the hand. The info is not as useful or accurate when taken out of context.
 
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Sat Nov 24, 2012, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockerguyAA View Post
I guess the point I'm trying to get at Sam is that while your post has some good info in it, it just seems like you are kind of getting tunnel-vision and focusing on only one aspect of the hand. The info is not as useful or accurate when taken out of context.
Oh, well that was really thoughtful of you to add all that extra detail Rocker!!

I guess I'm just not in the habit of giving out, like advice to other people because I just always feel like I'm the one needing the advice. So those notes were really just notes to myself for when I refer back to the hand and want to remember stuff that gave me trouble the last time.


It's all about me!



jk


Great advice as always Rocker!!
 

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