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River Call?

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River Call? - Tue Oct 02, 2012, 11:02 AM
(#1)
DiveAllIn's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
Raise to isolate limper get called by SB a bit laggy with some calling tendencies playing

when he donks turn start to scream hit set or straight or picked up a flush draw, when he call my re raise start thinking more set or straight. board doubles up on river and he puts in rest of stack do i call? Also should i have just called his turn bet?

 
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Tue Oct 02, 2012, 12:07 PM
(#2)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Just my 2 cents
Pre flop is a fold
Ask yourself what are you expecting from those 2 cards
A straight? 3 gapper ... fold
Pair of Aces? Low kicker ... fold
Flush? Maybe
How much are you willing to risk for that gamble?

But to answer your question, I would fold on the river
He called pre flop, he check then call the flop, on the turn he takes the lead and bets.......that's a set, and then bets 3/4 of pot, that's a full house.
 
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Tue Oct 02, 2012, 12:24 PM
(#3)
DiveAllIn's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
reason raised was to isolate limper reads on limper just that limped in every pot call iso raise then on majority of flops so far would fold to c-bet
 
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Tue Oct 02, 2012, 12:34 PM
(#4)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Not a hand analyser by any means but I will give my opinion for what its worth.

I think the button raise is fine and when the sb calls I am looking to have a fair idea of his calling range here. Is it broadways, high ace, any ace, pocket pairs, suited connectors, connectors, one gaps?

I think I may have made the continuation bet with a gutshot and nut flush draw a bit bigger on the flop and the sb calls again.

The turn fills my straight but also a bigger straight as well but he could just as easily have a set, be draw chasing or have A high with a good kicker or even A9. I think even with the donk bet I would have played my straight quicker and probably have shoved the turn depending on my ranging and player reads.

Board pairs on the river and the villain effectively shoves. It is a tough spot but would he slow play his set on the flop? Possibly. Would he bet the turn with a draw or would it need to be a straight? He is telling us he has it but it could just as easily be a busted draw or two pair with an Ace kicker or trip 3s. For some reason I fear 56 more than the set but I am calling here nonetheless. If he has the higher straight, a house or even quads so be it.

Cheers,

TC

Last edited by topthecat; Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 12:36 PM..
 
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Tue Oct 02, 2012, 12:40 PM
(#5)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Why were you trying to isolate limper though? You have a pretty bad pre-flop starting hand.

I agree with sandtrap777.

You should have been done with the hand pre-flop.
 
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Tue Oct 02, 2012, 12:54 PM
(#6)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiveAllIn View Post
reason raised was to isolate limper reads on limper just that limped in every pot call iso raise then on majority of flops so far would fold to c-bet
Nothing wrong with isolating a limper, but with that hand and 2 more players to play, don't think it's a good reason. To take advantage of such a limper, you wait for the right hand to take max value from him. You did make him fold, but then you had to deal with a better hand

GL
 
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Wed Oct 03, 2012, 06:38 PM
(#7)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Any chance of one of the hand analysers responding to this one. I think it is a hand that evokes a lot of poker and plus or minus ev moves and would be good for the community to know what is the best approach.

cheers,

TC
 
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Wed Oct 03, 2012, 07:19 PM
(#8)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Plus, minus, divide, multiplied and even square root EV, Its a fold pre flop, unless you want to gamble or play bingo. I'm talking about PRE-FLOP

Now if you're talking about the rest of the play, I see nothing wrong and I think folding on the river was the right move
 
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Wed Oct 03, 2012, 09:05 PM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Oh, I think I get why Sandtrap keeps saying im so text-bookie and a gambler. I think it's because I read all these theories on novel ways people have tried to find +EV situations. But some of them are a bit 'outside the box', so they're higher risk ... 'gambly'

Oh ... okay ya ... LOL!! Ya, in that way I guess I'm totally like that I thought u meant that I was some mindless monkey putting chips in a pot, which wasn't right at all. Monkey WITH a mind, maybe ... mindless monkey not so much


Anyhoo ... even the textbook theories would say this raise on the button is more marginal I think. Not because of the utg limp-caller, but because of the extra station in the blinds who was likely to want to join the party?

Like the reason 'punishing the limpers' in position is in theory supposed to be +EV is because (1) the limp shows weakness, and (2) they're out of position. Which will tend to make it hard for them to hit the flop hard and continue past the flop? So the extra fold equity is supposed to compensate for the lesser hand equity?

But if it's likely two people were going to be seeing the flop, that makes it much less likely that both will fold, and so you'd be playing your cards for value?

Maybe whether or not A5s is a strong enough hand to play for value might depend on how wide the sb tends to call, like topthecat noted?

But yeah, this is mostly just theory to me, these ways to find extra EV with lesser cards. I don't really have much experience actually trying most of them out

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Oct 03, 2012 at 09:16 PM..
 
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Wed Oct 03, 2012, 11:16 PM
(#10)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Like the reason 'punishing the limpers' in position is in theory supposed to be +EV is because (1) the limp shows weakness, and (2) they're out of position. Which will tend to make it hard for them to hit the flop hard and continue past the flop? So the extra fold equity is supposed to compensate for the lesser hand equity?

I agree with you, BUT you still need descent cards. For the same reasons you mention, would you play with 27o?

But if it's likely two people were going to be seeing the flop, that makes it much less likely that both will fold, and so you'd be playing your cards for value?

Again I agree, but with those 2 cards, there's no value to gain, but mainly to lose. The only possible value, is if the gamble ends up in your favor

Maybe whether or not A5s is a strong enough hand to play for value might depend on how wide the sb tends to call, like topthecat noted?

Yes, if it was you and the SB, but you have a limper and you still have the small and the big blind to face, and all you have is A5s, I don't think it's strong enough to play pre flop
Sam, you make very good points, which are general arguments, but when you put them in this game context, I don't think it applies

Like I said, for now, I'm just a winning NIT and my style of play would of folded this hand and by the result (which I peeked), I wouldn't of lost $5.00 ...LOL
 
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Wed Oct 03, 2012, 11:55 PM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Oh that's just the stuff I read on the internet lol lol!


In practice, all I've been doing is raising limpers for value because that's more than enough for me right there. Like since I'm still learning cbetting and how to fold


There was that AKs hand I posted the other day in the Team thread that I wound up totally screwing up ... so brutal And that was AKs! So for me, A5s would be a no-go. But I was assuming DiveAllIn's a lot more skilled than me, so probably he has a lot more wiggle-room to branch out?
 
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Wed Oct 03, 2012, 11:59 PM
(#12)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
I don't think it is a fold preflop, for what that is worth, I would make the exact same play preflop. We have the button and a hand with a lot of potential, particularly on stacks in excess of 100bb depth.

I would prefer you bet the flop larger, something on the order of 1$. On the turn, when we have an absolute monster, this concern for getting more money in becomes even stronger. So I think I would advocate a turn raise much larger than you did. Basically our opponent has led in a situation where it would be hard to imagine him leading and then folding to a raise. For that reason I would make it something closer to 5.50. Our opponent hasn't bet that large, only about half the pot.

This will disable his ability to call with a hand like a set profitably and draw to the board pair.

In order to make a profitable river call we have to be best on the river 28% of the time or greater. Between full houses and 56 I don't feel like this will be the case. There just aren't that many hands it makes sense for him to play this way. If we had raised larger on the turn, its worth noting, that we would have set up a pot where we probably can't fold on the river should he call and shove. In other words, it is very hard for him to exploit us if we raised larger.

Finally if we raise larger, this would induce our opponent to go all-in more often than calling, which also plays to our advantage when we have, for all intents and purposes, the nuts.
 
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Thu Oct 04, 2012, 12:06 AM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Yeah, for people who play well, I could see this being +EV ... I could see that ...

 
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Thu Oct 04, 2012, 10:49 AM
(#14)
DiveAllIn's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
TY for all input
 

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