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2NL FR TPTK vs Short Stack

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2NL FR TPTK vs Short Stack - Wed Oct 10, 2012, 12:54 PM
(#1)
Kedan87's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 74
First I wan't to apologise for the lack of reads, I was playing this on my phone so didn't have a tracker to help me out. I think this hand pretty much plays itself until the bet on the turn which might as well be an all-in. So preflop I put in a standard raise and get called by LP, so I put them on 22-TT,A2s+,ATo+,KT+,QT+,QT and maybe some suited connectors, all of which I’m in very good shape against. I flop TPTK so put in my standard 1/2 pot bet, also the SPR is 6 so I’m looking to get all-in. I then get min-raised, which tends to mean a lot of strength. Now here's my problem, this guy is playing with a short stack, and he min-raised. Both of these indicate a fish, so can I include any Ax hands in their range to min-raise or should it only include 2 pairs or sets on this flop? If I include all Ax hands then I'm about 2:1 ahead, but if it's just 2 pairs and sets I’m more than 9:1 behind. I decided to just call the min-raise as I want to keep in the hands I beat, as I thought they would fold to a re-raise/shove. Then on the turn he makes it clear he wants to play for stacks so looking at the SPR and the fact he seemed fishy I put him all-in.  

What’s everyone thoughts on ranging the villain?

 
 
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Thu Oct 11, 2012, 03:48 AM
(#2)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Tough hand! At 2NL I would assign him a much wider range than what you listed. I would include lots of trashy suited, semi-connected hands like 68s, 75s etc.

I would have been very tempted to 3 bet him all in on the flop. Often enough players minraise c-bets hoping to resteal the pot. But it is hard to tell if you are way ahead or way behind without any read here.

As played I would have folded to his turn bet since it looks very likely that he plans on getting all his chips in.

I hope you won the showdown!

Roland GTX
 
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Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:16 AM
(#3)
Kedan87's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 74
Thanks for your input Roland, and I’m glad it’s not just me that found this a tough one! I was very tempted to 3 bet him on the flop, but thought I would only get calls from hands that beat me and fold out all the worse hands. Looking back I think you could be right here, after all I wouldn’t expect many 2NL players to 2bet the flop then fold to a 3 bet. So if the plan was to get all-in on this hand it might have been best to do it on the flop just in case a scare cards comes and kills the action.

I’m going to keep the result quiet until one of the hand analysers gets a chance to take a look. Also if anyone else has any thoughts I would love to hear them.
 
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Thu Oct 11, 2012, 05:41 AM
(#4)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
I would have been quite happy had I put them all in on the flop and they folded since the situation is so unclear. Looking forward to what the experts have to say.

GL
 
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Thu Oct 11, 2012, 10:13 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi Kedan

Interesting hand, not sure I agree with some of the thought processes in the thread but here's my take.

Not super excited to be committing with the spr at 6 but against a probable fish when we hit top/top I think we are. I hate getting min raised though, since that's a fish tell of a big hand. So I won't be surprised to see A7, A6, 76, 66, 77 here.

Quote:
this guy is playing with a short stack, and he min-raised. Both of these indicate a fish, so can I include any Ax hands in their range to min-raise or should it only include 2 pairs or sets on this flop?

That's just it, we don't really know. The min-raise in general can be a fish tell of a big hand, but without any info we don't know what that means to him, it may or may not be 2 pair+. He might have AJ and be going with it so he raises. Given the fish indicator and low/medium spr I'm probably going to find out.

Quote:
I would have been quite happy had I put them all in on the flop and they folded since the situation is so unclear.
Flip that logic around Roland... if you are willing to get stacks in, then the goal is to try and do so in a way that maximizes value, gets you the most bang for your buck. The situation being unclear (as may poker situations are) doesn't matter. You said in your first post that you think there's some % chance he might raise the flop just to try and take the pot away. Well if we're going to put our stack in the middle anyway, it's better for us if he does so with bluffs as well as made hands, so we're not just getting value from Ax, but also from bluffs that are drawing dead to runners or pocket pairs with 2 outs. If we 3b shove the flop and he folds, that's not a good result, as it means we lost value from the part of his range that had very little equity in the pot (while still stacking off vs. the 2 pair+ hands). Basically it means we value owned ourselves a bit despite taking down the pot.

Quote:
Looking back I think you could be right here, after all I wouldn’t expect many 2NL players to 2bet the flop then fold to a 3 bet. So if the plan was to get all-in on this hand it might have been best to do it on the flop just in case a scare cards comes and kills the action.

Yes, but if the guy is a fish who is raising a worse ace, then he's not folding to any turn card anyway imo, so effectively there are no scare cards. The only scare card in this case, really, is another ace if he holds specifically 67.

So a line you might consider here instead of jamming all in on the flop, is to just call, and make a small turn bet.. this way if he's raising on a flush draw you deny him a free card option on the turn, and maybe induce him to jam as a semi-bluff, which of course you plan to call.

Dave



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Thu Oct 11, 2012, 11:44 AM
(#6)
Kedan87's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 74
I never would have considered donk betting the turn, but it does sounds like a good way of dealing with fishy min-raises that could be a draw. I'll have to remember this for next time it happens.

It turns out they had A7s and flopped a 2 pair that rivered a full house. I've since made a note so I don't fall for it if he try's it again. But it's good to know it wasn't a huge leak getting it in on this hand.

Thanks for your insight Dave, very helpful
 
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Thu Oct 11, 2012, 02:24 PM
(#7)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi Kedan

Interesting hand, not sure I agree with some of the thought processes in the thread but here's my take.



Flip that logic around Roland... if you are willing to get stacks in, then the goal is to try and do so in a way that maximizes value, gets you the most bang for your buck. The situation being unclear (as may poker situations are) doesn't matter. You said in your first post that you think there's some % chance he might raise the flop just to try and take the pot away. Well if we're going to put our stack in the middle anyway, it's better for us if he does so with bluffs as well as made hands, so we're not just getting value from Ax, but also from bluffs that are drawing dead to runners or pocket pairs with 2 outs. If we 3b shove the flop and he folds, that's not a good result, as it means we lost value from the part of his range that had very little equity in the pot (while still stacking off vs. the 2 pair+ hands). Basically it means we value owned ourselves a bit despite taking down the pot.



So a line you might consider here instead of jamming all in on the flop, is to just call, and make a small turn bet.. this way if he's raising on a flush draw you deny him a free card option on the turn, and maybe induce him to jam as a semi-bluff, which of course you plan to call.

Dave

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Thank you Dave! You have pointed this out to me before, but this is the first time the concept of value owning myself really sunk in.

Im glad you posted this spot Kedan

Roland GTX
 

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