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Zoom 2nl - Should I cbet?

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Zoom 2nl - Should I cbet? - Mon Oct 15, 2012, 06:36 PM
(#1)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
This could seem a really basic question but I'm revisiting the basics this week as I slowly lower my self back in to the world of poker. So here goes....

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

No reads to help out with decisions unfortunately. Pre flop seems super standard to me, I make my standard raise and get called in 2 spots. The flop comes down paired, J high with only one draw so should I c-bet...?

Yes:
- By c-betting I capitilise on the initiative I gained pre flop, I can represent the J and make some better hands such as A high and weak pairs fold.
- It doesn't allow a flush draw the chance to draw out on me for free.
- If I do get called I have 6 outs on most hands that call.

No:
- I'm multiway so it isn't as likely that I'll take the pot down now.
- I'm OOP to one opponent who could call with air as a float.
- I have no reads on either player.

So what would you do and why?

Thanks for the help.

Oliver


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Tue Oct 16, 2012, 03:07 AM
(#2)
craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246
I'd say at 2nl, people don't usually call as a float, they don't think at that sort of level mostly. Either he'll call down with Ax as an overcard, he's hit or he'll fold.
If you c-bet and he calls, then you can just check the turn and give up, or barrel the turn if you hit, and you'll likely get quite a nice pot.
I think this is usually a pretty decent board though, doesn't really hit too much, so I'd cbet and expect to take it down quite alot.
 
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Tue Oct 16, 2012, 10:41 AM
(#3)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hi Oliver

I think this is a clear spot to continuation bet.

1. We have immediate fold equity because it is hard to hit this flop texture, it being a paired board with a low card that is unlikely to be held by our opponents.

2. We can turn clear double barrel cards, namely, a spade, a nine, a ten, an ace. All these cards give us more fold equity and real equity. The best barrel cards have both f.e. and r.e.

3. We will make the best hand on a Q or a K turn often. We can value bet this at our leisure on the turn or the river.

I would bet closer to half pot on this texture.
 
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Tue Oct 16, 2012, 12:13 PM
(#4)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
Hi Oliver

I think this is a clear spot to continuation bet.
Personally, I wouldn't, it's a check for me

1. We have immediate fold equity because it is hard to hit this flop texture, it being a paired board with a low card that is unlikely to be held by our opponents.
I agree if you're playing high stakes and that you have basic knowledge about poker, but this is 2NL, players can have ATC
The players range at this level of stake is very wide
, I'd say 40-50%. Plug those numbers in Poker Stove and you're at 26% and the other two are at 37%

2. We can turn clear double barrel cards, namely, a spade, a nine, a ten, an ace. All these cards give us more fold equity and real equity. The best barrel cards have both f.e. and r.e.
Again I agree, you can also get KK or QQ or AQ of spades, but you can also get zilch, nada, so basically, you're spewing chips for a gamble.


3. We will make the best hand on a Q or a K turn often. We can value bet this at our leisure on the turn or the river.

I would bet closer to half pot on this texture.
Half the pot means 10 cents, that's small change to the other players just to see the turn. Again, if you're playing higher stakes, half pot is huge

Gareth, I'm pretty sure that all these theoretical analysis work fine at higher stake, just like I'm sure that they can't be applied to lower stakes (2NL and 5NL)

At 25NL or higher, I would agree with you, but at 2NL, it's theoretical, but not always practical

Just my 2 cents worth
 
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Tue Oct 16, 2012, 12:27 PM
(#5)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
I think you would be surprised how often both players will press the fold button in this hand should our hero continuation bet.

One point on theory v practice

When I am playing 25nl or higher, I don't make money because of what works in theory -- I make money because of what works in practice.
 
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Tue Oct 16, 2012, 12:43 PM
(#6)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
I think you would be surprised how often both players will press the fold button in this hand should our hero continuation bet.

One point on theory v practice

When I am playing 25nl or higher, I don't make money because of what works in theory -- I make money because of what works in practice.
Are you saying that you don't use theory about Value betting, +EV, -EV, Pot control, c-betting, Try stealing BB, protect BB at 25NL or higher?

Those theories don't or rarely work at 2 and 5NL, At 25NL, you've adjusted your game by using theory and adding some of your own techniques to make it work, such as reading the players and if you're using a HUD, then you're using other info

All I'm saying is that, it's not the same game at 2NL than at 25NL and that you can't play them the same way
 
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Tue Oct 16, 2012, 12:56 PM
(#7)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
I'm saying that hand waving away advice because it is in theory, not practice, doesn't hold water.

The players at 2nl are worse, not better, than those at 25nl.

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying, but every time I have played 2nl or 5nl, for what its worth, I've printed money, and I haven't made wild or significant changes to my game. For that reason I don't believe there is some black hole at these stakes were nothing works as it should.
 
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Wed Oct 17, 2012, 04:34 PM
(#8)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Nice to see some discussion going on here, I'm not sure I can really comment much on it as I haven't played anything above 5nl. Although I would agree with sandtrap that the players can be very wide here, I'm unsure whether or not this means we should cbet (hence my post).

I decided to cbet to captilise on my initiative and as I thought I had some fold equity, here's how the rest of the hand played out....

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

The turn play is pretty straight forward imo but I was really unsure on the best play on the flop so thanks for all the input guys


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